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Black guard of Barad dur.
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Author:  Haldir glory [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Black guard of Barad dur.
mouth of sauron with armoured dark steed 75
captain of the black guard 60
drumme rof the black guard 45
black guard banner bearer 42
23 balck guardians of barad dur 276

498 points 27 minis 3 might
Author:  spuds4ever [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Wow! That's a lot of metal minis. :o I know this dosen't seem as epic but maybe take out the drummer, Mouth of Sauron (unfortunately you can't spend much on heroes in such a seriously elite army) and the banner to get a cheaper orc banner, some meat-shields (in the form of orcs) and Gorbag to bump up your might.

CotBG-60 points
Gorbag with shield-50 points
20 BGoBD-240 points
20 orcs with spears (these will be meat-shields until combat when they will rush behind the Black guard and support)-120 points
1 orc with banner-30 points

total: 500 points, 5 might, 43 models, 0 shots

Maybe you weren't looking for a balanced army but just my 2 cents.
Author:  Haldir glory [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mouth of Sauron 60 p.
captain of the black guard 60 p.
10 black guard of barad dur 120 p.
10 orc trackers 50p.
8 morgul knights 160p.
6 orc warriors with shields 36p.
2 orc warriors with spear shield 14p.

500 points 38 models 3 might

its better?
Author:  Maermaethor [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Its better but you really need more spears. Also, orc trackers aren't that great. I recommend dropping them and getting a drum. Also, you have no heroes from the Minas Morgul list so you can't use Morgul Knights. How about this:

Mouth of Sauron 60
Black Guard Captain 60
Black Guard Drummer 45

16 Orc warriors with Shield 96
16 Orc warriors with Spear 96
12 Black Guards of Barad Dur 144

501 points, 47 models, 3 might
Author:  Haldir glory [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:45 am ]
Post subject: 
i nt use Lome so what minas morgul list stuck with?
Author:  CreatureFear [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm building a Black Guard list and I plan to work up to this:

The Shadow Lord
Black Guard Captain x2
Black Guard x15
Orc Spearmen x15
Orc Tracker x15
595-48 Models, 6 Might

Minas Morgul leaders would be:
Gothmog, Grishnakh, Orc Captains, and Kardush
Author:  Darken [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
CreatureFear wrote:
Minas Morgul leaders would be:
Gothmog, Grishnakh, Orc Captains, and Kardush


And tha Black Numenorean Marshal.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I reckon you'd be better off taking the dark marshal instead of the shadow lord here as you have no banner.
Author:  CreatureFear [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:04 am ]
Post subject: 
@Darken,
I don't generally list stuff GW doesn't even make, but you're right.

@spuds4ever,
I don't see why each army needs a banner, never found them terribly useful (esp. in evil forces - maybe with Elves). I remember some terribly old thread detailing how they only pay off their points the higher your FV is, and 4 isn't terribly high anymore. I also like having my army protected from Elf arrows, etc. Really comes down to what armies you plan on facing too.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:57 am ]
Post subject: 
BTW Orc Drummer affects only orcs, and warg-riders and Black-Guard Drummer affects only uruks (ie. even isengard ones)

So unless you get both drummers or only uruk/orc army, it isn´t very advisavle to use them with uruk & orc mix...

OR you could take a lot of warg-riders and a BG drummer with Black Guard but then again you would be utterly outnumbered... but fast moving

I liked the list spuds4ever posted as it has enough numbers , considering you are using elites... and enough mights.. though speed and the lack of bows might be a big big problem...


#On a side note though, i have calculated that the Black Guard are totally not worth their 12 points. I mean they differ from Isengard uruks w/shield with only one more strenght but cost 2 points more...???? like what the HELL!!! (basically you lose 1 point per Black-Guard) AND that strneght 5 is only useful against Rohan or other troops with defence of 3 or 5 , but usually you face troops 4 or 6, so you don´t really benefit from their "brutal" strenght...

-Although Captains are pretty good... since for 60 points you are able to field a courage 7!!! captain (field Nazgul +2 and a hornblower +1)

-And it is possible to get an Black-Guard Drummer with Isengard raiders throw Dol Guldur, which could make "Mauhur Marauders" even more faster... :rofl:

But i relly don´t reccmoned the Black Guard... only the Captain... you are far better of with Morannon Orcs... :rofl:
Author:  Highlordell [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mouth-of-Sauron wrote:

#On a side note though, i have calculated that the Black Guard are totally not worth their 12 points. I mean they differ from Isengard uruks w/shield with only one more strenght but cost 2 points more...???? like what the HELL!!! (basically you lose 1 point per Black-Guard) AND that strneght 5 is only useful against Rohan or other troops with defence of 3 or 5 , but usually you face troops 4 or 6, so you don´t really benefit from their "brutal" strenght...

-Although Captains are pretty good... since for 60 points you are able to field a courage 7!!! captain (field Nazgul +2 and a hornblower +1)

-And it is possible to get an Black-Guard Drummer with Isengard raiders throw Dol Guldur, which could make "Mauhur Marauders" even more faster... :rofl:

But i relly don´t reccmoned the Black Guard... only the Captain... you are far better of with Morannon Orcs... :rofl:


Sorry to derail this topic but I do not agree that BlackGuard are not worth their points, I always thought Strength counted for 2 points when working out costs, and I would say Strength 5 is more useful than you think. Because it covers defence 3, 5, and 7, (whereas for strength 4 theres only 4 and 6 because 8 and 2 are very rare defence values). Think about all the armies that include mainstay units with defence 3,5 and 7.

- Rohan
- Corsairs
- Wood Elves
- Scout Uruk-hai
- Galdhrim
- Mahud
- Army of the Dead
- Last Alliance (Numenor + Elves)
- Orcs
- Goblins

Most of these units will be commonly seen at defence 5, whther that be with shields or other wargear.

2 other points which are commonly left out are...

1. Fight 4: Yes it isn't much nowadays but Mordor Orcs and Morannon Orcs are stuck at Fight 3 which alows them to be killed before their high Strength is taken into account.

2. Courage 3: Yes, again it isn't much but that small increase from their Orc cousins makes a big difference, it makes passing a Courage test 50/50, and makes it equal to most races of men.

All in all, Black Guard armies look fun to build and play with, and I like the second list a bit more but there is issues with adding/taking out a drummer as previously highlighted.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
I see where you are coming from, but I just stated my opinion, and "NO" a point of strenght is a point on eermm...mm..."point cost"?

I have nothing againts them in thematical or "cool looking units" manner, but that 1 point per troop really irritates me...

Hm you want a courage 3 and Fight value of 4 troops? Get the regular mordor uruks... :rofl:

And we should take into account only good armies so that means Corsairs, scout uruks, mahud , orcs and goblins are out...

So we are left with
-Rohan
-Wood elves
-Galdhrim
-Army of the Dead
-Last alliance

The army of the dead is not that often to be found on the table top, although indeed BG are perfect against them...

Last Alliance is somw-what arguable as elves are defence 6 and only men are easily killable so a wise commander would try to fight BG with elves...and leave the rest of the orcish horde for the Numenoreans... so BG may be very effective againts Last Alliance and might just not to be...
Also as with Army of the Dead the Last Alliance army is not that common...

That leaves us basically two opportunities that BG are perfect or some-what perfect against... Rohan and Elves of the Woods... and now that I calclulate how many other amires there are... I sincerely doubt that they will pay off...as the first thing that pops into my mind are High Elves...(FV of 5, regular defence of 6) ,Gondor (regular defence of 6 and sometimes FV of 4) and Dwarves (FV of 4, regular defence of 6)

So GB are not toally useless.. but that strenght 5 is nothing significant.
BUT FEEL FREE TO TRY :rofl: it´s just my IMO
Author:  Maermaethor [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
You must not forget Dwarves. Dwarves are the only thing that I would want Black Guard for, but are definitely worth the extra point per model for this. What I would do is have a handful of black guard to destroy their shieldmen. With the same fight value and spear support you have a much greater chance of winning the fight, and you kill dwarf shields on a 5+. You shouldn't get too many though as once the shields are dead you don't need them anymore. After the shields are down Morannon Orcs can take care of the 2 handed axes and archers (my friend likes to stick his archers as part of the shield wall)

Thats what I will do anyway once I start collecting more Mordor. Its so annoying when your Morannon Orcs still need 6's to would those annoying shieldmen.
Author:  spuds4ever [ Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
You are probably better off taking a good hand-ful of BG and taking the bulk as Morranon orcs.
Author:  CreatureFear [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:59 am ]
Post subject: 
spuds4ever wrote:
You are probably better off taking a good hand-ful of BG and taking the bulk as Morranon orcs.


That's what I was thinking (UH would work too) - maybe 6 or so Black Guard along with their Captains (that unlimited range super-courage when a Nazgul is around is awesome).

Whether you're counting Good and Evil armies together for the purposes of how common the numbers are depends on where you're from and if blue-on-blue matches are common or not.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Well do as you will, I just stated my opinion, hell I use Giant Spiders for such muscle power...that preciouse wounding re-roll and 2 attacks are soo goood

But you have to remember that Uruk Drummer affects only uruks and Orc Drummer affect only orcs and warg-riders, so unless you take both Drummers by taking only one of them some part of you army will be turtle-slow.

:rofl:
Author:  spuds4ever [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:49 am ]
Post subject: 
@MoS, most elves are not D6, only the ones with shields which, chances are, are not going to be fielded too much.

I don't see why you should leave out the other evil armies like corsairs and such as you'll very likely be playing evil vs. evil some times.
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mmm From what I have seen with elves, they hardley make use of their elven blades and so are given shields instead thus being more resilient. In these kind of elven armies only bowmen are with defence 5...

And if you ask why are elven blades in a manner not effective then the answear is that since elves are fielded in small numbers they really can´t pair up (one fighting with a hand weapon and the other with 2.H.weap.) to make effective use of a 2.H.weap.

Why leave out those evil armies? Well it is really a matter of taste whether you play evil vs. evil or you don´t. E.g I don´t, not because I don´t want to, it just doesn´t make the game soo fun... for us (the company whit which i play with) at least. But if you do then fine, okey, but keep in mind that this game is ment for games good vs. evil. And house rules or such is another case. :rofl:
Author:  Darken [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mouth-of-Sauron wrote:
Well do as you will, I just stated my opinion, hell I use Giant Spiders for such muscle power...that preciouse wounding re-roll and 2 attacks are soo goood

But you have to remember that Uruk Drummer affects only uruks and Orc Drummer affect only orcs and warg-riders, so unless you take both Drummers by taking only one of them some part of you army will be turtle-slow.

:rofl:

orc drummer affect mordor uruks as well, the only thing they won't help is the black guard
Author:  Mouth-of-Sauron [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Really? Sorry for the misguidance then... I don´t own a Mordor sourcebook, so I´m not too surprised that I am wrong... Well it still doesn´t change the fact that they don´t support each other very well :rofl:
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