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Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
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Author:  ezeqiel [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Hi folks,

Long time lurker on the site and the Hobbit film has ignited again my interest/passion in all things Middle-earth and this hobby so I thought I'd get involved again (albeit I had some posts and wip's to my name a few years back but they've been wiped since there were a few issues with the site some time ago).

The query I have is regarding trolls, specifically the troll ("chieftain" as GW label him) that Aragorn fights at the Black Gates in the films.

I've managed to pick-up an Eaglemoss Special Edition companion piece figure that they call the "Armoured Troll" off ebay and whilst I love the model and its pose, I'm wondering is the scale too much/over the top for use with the LotR/Hobbit range of figures, as per below:

Image

He measures 80mm in height, about 20mm taller then any GW troll I have (though they are all stooped poses) and when trying to calculate his "scale" to see if he fits in I don't have a concrete measurement of his real height in the films/books.

Some of the wiki articles etc list trolls varying from 9/10ft tall to up to 14ft tall (14ft would put him at approx a 1/62 scale), but the sizes are associated with different varieties of troll and I'm finding the terms for each variety are often inter-mingled which further muddies my references/thoughts.

Basically I like to try and keep all my elements of the hobby as grounded in the reality of the Tolkien world as much as possible, similar to how I feel Tolkien kept the story and mytholgy of his world grounded and feeling "real", so using a figure that is out of sync with the rest of the world is going to be a bugbear I can't resolve, hence this query.

So what do people on here think? Will he work as the leader of trolls if I featured him in my Mordor army?

If nothing else, it should provide a scale pic for others who might come across these models on ebay.

Thoughts, opinions and references welcomed!

(I used my wife as a guidance point and she immediately said he was too big, despite comparing him to my Weta model where the troll is carrying a WoMT in 1 hand - and so the seeds of my self doubt were sown).

(edited as he's actually 20mm taller, not 30mm I had originally stated)
Author:  garmenhord [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Seeing him like that near gandalf my first impression was, it could work. But on the other hand Gandalf stands on a base and the troll doesn't so far. Put the troll on a base and he will look even bigger. There are some flatter bases - those might help out a bit.
I think it might look strange near bigger figures - that will start looking smaller by putting a larger troll near it. I can imagine a balrog looking less impressive near that guy.
U c trolls picking up humans and throw them away. Well if u put a figure in his hand, it might not look to bad. I looks like he could just grab one of the mini's and making it look alright.
Maybe it might be a good idea to mix some of the other trolls in ur army but on bases that make them look taller. Like some trolls standing or rocks. That way u have differences in height all over. Making him less stand out.
Just some toughts on this :-)...
Author:  Bartelomeus [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
That's a nice looking troll! 30 mm bigger than the regular trolls which are 60mm you say ... that's 150%, quite a difference.
It doesnt look ridiculous though but I wouldn't mix trolls because the scale difference will be way too obvious.
Author:  MeatBoy1994 [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Friend, GW scales all their monsters down, and this includes trolls. It would seem, that the figure you have is true to movie scale. Watch the Fellowship, the cave troll scene!
Author:  cereal_theif [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
... this is in the favour of your opponent so i wouldn't see a problem
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
I think he actually looks closer to the scale we had in the movies but not in scale with the GW models of course. It does look awesome but are you able to even fit it on a standard monster base? If he can't (which I'm not sure is possible) then I'd say you're better off NOT playing him rather than try to play him on a larger base.

As others have noted, you probably won't mind using it too much in games with few or no other monsters on your side. But he will probably weaken the appearance of any other Trolls you may put in your force (unless of course you get the Eaglemoss Mordor Trolls as well...and Treebeard to face them).
Author:  RangerofTheNorth [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Use it! You could fly a nazgul behind him and use him as an arrow shield lol. He's movie scale and thank you for posting this, now I need to find one.
Author:  ezeqiel [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Cheers for the replies and input guys...

@ garmenhord
Yeah, the lack of a base is an issue, I intend to place him on a standard monster/cavalry base but was thinking of carving some it out and embedding him in it slightly to reduce the impact.
Agree about the balrog looking inferior to him too, though it is also in a stooping pose, standing upright as it did when facing Gandalf before the bridge of Khazad-dum would see the Balrog taller even with the GW-scaling down in play.
I'm thinking of molding a 2nd left-hand for him and using that one to have the captured man (WoMT) held in it, to give me an option to swap it out to keep him appropriate to whatever force he is pitched against.
Agree on the idea of varying my other troll sizes to break up the difference in height.
Cheers for your thoughts!

@ Bartelomeus
Sorry I got that measurement wrong, he's 20mm taller (corrected my first post above) so it doesn't look as desperate a difference - being a full 50% bigger would be hard to justify!
I think if I straighten up some other troll poses and possibly bulk them up I can get a decent variation going that won't be too obvious (see below).

@ MeatBoy1994
Cheers Meatboy - on looking through further film footage I can see evidence for him being to movie-scale or atleast very close to it.

@ Beowulf02809
Agreed, I think he matches movie-scale but as the other trolls are scaled down it through his appearance off.
Have tested and can get him on a standard monster base (barely) but will try to embed in to it as I mentioned above to reduce the increase in height as much as I can.
I actually have 3 more standard (smaller) Eaglemoss models coming off ebay aswell to accompany him :)
And he does face-off rather well against Treebeard, much more girth but Treebeard is a good bit taller.

@ RangerofTheNorth
He would make a good arrow shield, much like the scene in the film where the trolls first burst through the gates of Minas Tirith, one of the Attack Trolls is pincushioned badly (albeit he didn't appear to have a breastplate on - silly troll!).
I got the big guy for £10.99 off ebay with the incoming 3 arrivals bought for 4.99 each (P&P not included) - quite a saving in comparison to buying 4 GW trolls :)


I've some further scale images coming up below aswell as some notes about height from Tolkien/Weta/wiki's and my attempts to make it all fit as "real".
Author:  ezeqiel [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Righto, so I got a quick photo opportunity together this evening to compare the big guy to the other GW trolls I have waiting to be built/painted/converted to see how they all fit together if used in one force (thinking WOTR here and the Siege of Minas Tirith), details on sizes for each listed aswell:

Image

Measurement to the top of their heads:
GW Cave Troll - 54mm
GW Troll Chieftain - 62mm
Eaglemoss Collectors Armoured Troll - 80mm
GW Siege Troll (coversion wip) - 74mm
GW Attack Troll - 65mm

Much of the GW trolls are stooped or posed with knees bent which I think could add between 5mm to 15mm if they were straightened up.
My siege troll conversion stands pretty tall and will have a halberd like weapon made for him to add to the overall appearance of height. He might get his shoulders bulked up a little to increase his overall girth as I don't want him appearing tall & thin!

In addition to the above, I have 3 standard Eaglemoss figures incoming in the next few days and whilst I've never seen one in person, the seller tells me they are approx 55mm high so they'll fall on the slightly smaller size but will add numbers & variety, here they are:

Image
(if they do prove a little too small some greenstuff may help me add height)

A little evidence for the height of the eaglemoss troll figure being to scale can be seen in 3 different scenes from the films.
1) The Black Gates Open: huge mountain trolls work the gears that open the Black Gates, beside them appears to be some orc overseers that are barely up to the trolls thigh/knee.
2) Whatever comes through those Gates: as the Attack Trolls enter Minas Tirith and Gandalf takes to slaying some, whilst upon Shadowfax he has to extend his reach directly up with Glamdring to slice at the trolls exposed neck
3) The Dark Lord is Fallen: As Barad-dur crumbles and Sauron dies, the Armoured Troll Chieftain that had been fighting Aragorn is seen fleeing through the crowd of orcs, who just come up to its hip level.

The films and the artbooks associated with them have intermingled the terms mountain troll and Olog-hai to be basically the same troll type and they approximate one to stand at 14ft tall so I'm happy to be within that range.

I think Tolkien inferred that the Olog-hai, while connected to mountain trolls, were a smaller breed closer to a mid-way size between that of a normal troll and the Uruk-hai, but I prefer the bigger, more monstrous appearance that the films opted for.

Does anyone have the plastic Mordor Troll (straighter stance) that they could measure to add to the mix? Do they match their metal counterparts, perhaps bigger/smaller?
And what about the new Hobbit trolls - what size do they come in at in this troll scale?


Hope some of the above helps anyone else thinking about picking up alternative, cheaper troll models that share the Lotr design look & feel!

(I'll update the overall scale chart with the other 3 eaglemoss trolls and the Hobbit trolls when I get them!)
Author:  Sticky Fingersss [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Nice troll army. I think you could get away with that size. Some trolls are taller than others!
Author:  jay170788 [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Looking at it next to your troll chieftan / attack troll, i think it looks perfect. The biggest and baddest always lead evil troops and he is certain to be the biggest, it's definitly a better match than the Great Goblin and the other misty mountain goblins...
Author:  garmenhord [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
lol gotta agree on that last one - at first i tought it was a troll instead of a goblin.
I didn't think to much of that one till i saw him in the movie. He really rocks lol. Just like it with that English voice, same for the 3 trolls.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Agreed! Seeing them together and on a base I think you are fine using it. It leaves little doubt who's in charge. 8)
Author:  BrentS [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Its been a while since I've looked at a troll model... but as I recall, they come on 60mm "monster" bases and not 40mm "Cavalry" bases. I think the Cave Troll (and possibly Buhrdur) are the only trolls that used the cavalry bases. It doesn't look like you'd have any problems fitting this Troll on a 60mm base.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Cave trolls and half trolls come on 40mm bases (buhrdur included). All other trolls are 60mm circle bases. I would say this troll looks to big for a 60mm base but that may just be the picture.
Author:  RangerofTheNorth [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Been looking for these on ebay, its confusing because it appears the smaller ones are chessboard pieces, which is fine, but it makes it confusing because I've seen mislabeled items like your troll listed as both the collectors edition and chess piece
Author:  ezeqiel [ Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
@ Craftsman/SouthernDunedain
Good call on the base sizes - I'd forgotten the bigger trolls use the 60mm base, my cave troll is already glued to his smaller base and it was him I matched everyone up to for the line-up shot. There'll be no issue getting the big guy onto a 60mm base.

@ RangerofTheNorth
Yeah, it is confusing initially as people use the same naming convention for the small chess pieces and the larger models and the photos aren't always good enough or show enough to discern between them.

Here's what I've found out:
1. The smallest figures that are too out of scale are most often referred to as "Chess Collection" in the title and always come with a heightened chess base. They also feature, from what I've seen, in a grey coloured box.
The trolls I've seen in this range are: Battle Troll (no club), Siege Troll (single spiked helm), Catapult Troll (no rock)

2. The standard Eaglemoss figures that I think will come in just under the current GW scale (approx 55mm) are referred to as "Collectors Models", they come with a flat circular base and the box has a golden/beige map design & colour to it.
Trolls that I've seen in this range are: Battle Troll (w/ club), Catapult Troll (w/ rock), Armoured Troll (GW Chieftain design)

3. Lastly there are the Special Edition Companion pieces of which they are the fewest designs of (not just trolls but any other models), and its from this range that my big armoured troll is from. Not sure all the scales match in this range as from what I've read they are all one-offs. Box colours vary between the grey & gold varieties of the two smaller scales above.
Trolls in this range are: Cave Troll (no base), Armoured Troll (no base, (GW Chieftain design).

I'll send you a PM with a link to another one of my trolls above that I was watching but have no intention of picking up.
Author:  ezeqiel [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Well I got the 3 "Standard" Eaglemoss Collectors Models in the post today (the Chieftain, Battle, Siege Troll varieties) and I'm sorry to say they are too far out of scale for me to include without doing some serious work on them.

On their own they might work with GW man-sized figures, but they are considerably smaller than GW's Mordor Troll models overall and for me could not be used alongside each other.

I'll post them up in a scale chart later this evening. I'm a little deflated :(
Author:  ezeqiel [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
And here they are:

Image

(from left to right: Eaglemoss Collectors Model Siege Troll, Eaglemoss Collectors Model Battle Troll, GW Uruk-hai Captain, Eaglemoss Collectors Model Armoured Troll, GW Cave Troll, GW Mordor Troll Cheiftain, GW Gandalf, Eaglemoss Special Companion Piece Armoured Troll)

They are of a similar size to the GW Cave Troll, but theirheads & limbs are all out of proportion and should be bigger.

Not sure what my plan is for them now, whether to hack them up and expand with greenstuff or move them on as not appropriate.
Author:  jay170788 [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mordor Trolls / Olog-hai - A question of Scale?
Just because they are smaller i do not think they are a write-off, they are still big enough and scary enough to be considered trolls, they still look big enough to throw a normal "man-sized" model and so i would definitely not have any quarms facing off against you and i also think they will look extremely cool on a battlefield as variation is totally the spice of life.
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