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| Thoughts on the Witch King https://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17425 |
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| Author: | SparedBile [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:24 am ] |
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On the Witch King being killed, I think he might actually have died. In the book, Merry stabs him in the back of the leg with a westernese blade and it actually caused the Witch King pain. Perhaps that weakened him enough that a normal blade could slay him. His crown even melted, another sign that he might actually have died. As to which is stronger, Gandalf or the Witch King, I think Gandalf is because when the gate to Minis Tirith is broken open and the Witch King rides on his horse, he retreats at the sound of the horns, but if he believed he could have slain Gandalf, wouldn't he have stayed and fought? His lemmings could have kept all the MT warriors away from them while they fought. Then, there's also the fact that Gandalf fell, defeated the Balrog of Morgoth and came back to keep fighting. But I think the Witch King, in both the book and movies, is way more BA (he's invisible, wears a crown, and runs around with a mace, come on). |
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| Author: | ShadowMaster26 [ Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:55 am ] |
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The Witch-King's my fave evil character, but on the subject of the run-away-at-sound-of-horns, he's probably just trying to deal with this more immediate threat. |
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| Author: | SparedBile [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:29 pm ] |
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But wouldn't killing Gandalf have been a mighty blow to the hope of Men? And he had to have had LTs that could have handled the new threat until he'd killed Gandalf, and with the White wizard gone there wouldn't be anything to drive back the nazgul or strike a strong enough fear into the hearts of the orcs and trolls to make them flee. |
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| Author: | whafrog [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:25 pm ] |
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SparedBile wrote: On the Witch King being killed, I think he might actually have died.
He did. Even the orcs knew it later on in the book. |
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| Author: | General Elessar [ Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:37 pm ] |
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Gandalf vs. Witchking... a difficult decision. I'm surprised that this quote hasn't turned up yet: "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." - The White Rider Obviously 'Black' applies to Sauron, but is Gandalf also referring to the Nazgul? However, in the same passage Gandalf says that he is more dangerous than anything the Three Hunters will ever meet, unless they are brought "alive before the seat of the Dark Lord". As the Witchking is not mentioned as an exception, I'm inclined to think he isn't. Yet there are two problems: one, the Dark Lord gave the Witchking special powers, so perhaps these powers from Sauron (who is "more dangerous" than Gandalf) would make the Witchking "more dangerous". And two, this quote maybe isn't the literal truth. Gandalf could have just been explaining to the Three Hunters that he possessed a great power, but also pointing out that Sauron (but not just Sauron) was more powerful. |
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| Author: | SparedBile [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:43 am ] |
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whafrog wrote: SparedBile wrote: On the Witch King being killed, I think he might actually have died. He did. Even the orcs knew it later on in the book. Thanks for clearing that up, it's been forever since I read the books. |
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| Author: | CreatureFear [ Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:32 am ] |
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I don't know if you could say that he was definitively dead at the Pelennor - but for all intents and purposes Eowyn killed him. In a letter of Tolkien (240something) mentioning the eight present when the ring was destroyed he mentions the WK being "reduced to impotence" - implying that he wasn't truly "dead" until the ring itself was destroyed. Gandalf also says "you have heard the last echo of his despair" - but this could simply mean that he was "reduced" to an "impotent" spirit until the ring was destroyed. I think there's a clear difference between Morgoth, Sauron and the WK. It seems like Sauron learned from his precursor's mistakes, more or less, because the person who would supplant him (the WK) relies entirely on him to exist - when Sauron ends so does the WK. Though the mace symbolism is an interesting parallel... |
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| Author: | Little_Odo [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:49 am ] |
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Interesting thread guys - not something I have really thought a lot about. My view, from reading the book, was that Eowyn/Merry had actually killed the Witch King at Pelennor with a combination of the blade and Eowyn not being a man (or was it because Merry wasn't a man but a Hobbit?). Then again, I may be getting film and book confused - back to the books for me I think! The destruction of the ring did for the rest of the wraiths. |
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| Author: | Finli O'Tengo [ Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:05 pm ] |
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Great points everyone! I agree that the WK was "killed" by Eowyn and Merry, but believe that it was in the same sense that Sauron was slain at the downfall of Numenor. They are spiritual beings so a physical death is not enough to eradicate them--it takes a spiritual defeat (ergo the destruction of the ring). Lets say that the ring was not destroyed at Mount Doom. I think that the WK would have been a formless spirit, not up to his former strength for a while, but would have eventually resumed a form and power. As for Gandalf, obviously coming out in full-force, all-guns-blazing is not his style. But if he did reveal his full power (thus ignoring the mandate of the Valar) he would destroy the WK. The real unanswered question (to me) is that would Gandalf, going as far as would be willing to go, beat the Witch King? I still think yes, but it would be quite a struggle. |
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