So, starting about 3 years ago, I've been trying to piece together a map based campaign (I know that these have been attempted a lot, because I've read probably as many as you have, but I believe mine to be more original and realistic then any other) involving a large map of middle earth, armies being represented as pins with seperate army lists, taking into account time of day, fatigue, etc. About a year and a half ago, I started posting on forums to gain insight, as I finished piecing it together (I'll include my main post at the end of this post. My original intention was to create a full sized rule book, but as creative as I try to be, I don't have the attention span to sit down and put all of my ideas into full, proper written form. So, halfway through last summer, me and my gaming group, highly anticipating the biggest series of games wed ever played, sat down one day, with my pages and pages of random scribble consisting of rules, ready to play. About an hour later, faced with the daunting task of writing up the large amount of initial army lists, and finally understanding the IMMENSE amount of paperwork this would take, we decided to play an 8000 pt game on my Helms Deep (mind you, it was really entertaining to watch my wood elf sentinals hold the main gate for half the game, by singing his trolls/battering ram carriers off the ramp over and over again, and unable to be shot at, due to their cloaks and a 16" high wall XD)

With the summer over, I headed off to university, where about 2 months ago I went to an XNA Framework seminar. . . basically, a seminar on how to program XBox 360 games. And that's when the light bulb came on.

So, I'm thinking (thinking meaning I've already started) of programming a simple Xbox game, which keeps track of all the armies and cities, turns, movement rules/distances, when combats occur, time of day, etc etc etc. It'll be a major investment in time, but finals are almost over, so I should have all of the summer.

My question is, do you guys think this would work? You probably don't know much about my campaign, so I can answer any questions, as well as copy over a previous post regarding the general idea. For those of you who want to contribute, I could really use some help thinking of ideas how to make prisoners and retreating work (we're afraid that since every army will be battling many times, heroes will just die off, and it'd just turn into a battle of troops) any advice/suggestions would be appreciated! Here's my original post on the palantir:

Hey guys, I've decided to put something up here, and see what you all think of it.

I have a pretty large gaming group devoted to Lord of The Rings, and it got to the point where all our games were starting to be the same. So we decided we wanted to do something where the results of one battle would cary over to the next. And through long weeks of evolving our ideas, we've come up with this idea.

We've decided to have a campaign that involves all of middle earth. We're printing out a large maybe 6' x 12' map of middle earth. We've picked out major areas on the map, and marked them.

The idea behind it, is we have a large chart listing each place, what heros start there, beginning points, and ppd (points per day). So you use your initial points in each city to build an army of the race that city would normally produce. Then, you can send the army out onto the real map, represented by a pin with a flag on it, and the army would be written up on paper. There's four move sections to a "day", and then the next day you go through each city and add the ppd, and spend them on more models if you want. Then, if two enemy pins ever get into contact with each other, you have a battle with the models, with terrain appropriate for where you're fighting on the big map, using the same time zone as when they got into battle, and heros keep the same wounds and will/fate/might after the battle (though more can be purchased. . . more about that later) there's rules for fatigue, by marching too much, we're using the rules for boats, and pretty much everything we can think of. When you take over an enemy "city" you get half its ppd per day. We've got rules for the one ring, for the three elven rings, and for all sorts of things really. We've modified the time line a bit, so we can have more models and places (dol goldur is still standing), but we think it'll just add to the fun.

So, here's the deal.

As vast and inginuitive as my imagination is, I can only think of so many things. And since we want to make this, well, a monumental thing, we want all things considered. On top of that, I imagine once you all start seeing the rules, you might want to try this yourselves.

Once I start getting the rules typed up and put into good grammar and whatnot (as in once they stop being scrawled pieces of pen on s**** sheets of paper) I'm going to start posting them. I imagine I'll probably have a posting schedual, to make things less confusing, but anyway.

I want suggestions, I want discussions, I want every little idea that anybody could ever possibly think of. I want criticism, and everything.

If you know of someone who's done something like this before, I want to know details, so that we can build off of that.

Moderators, it would be nice to have your insight on this as well. Nothing could help with making rules better than the people who are paid to do so.

Once we've got the rules down, and we start playing it through, I'll keep a constant update of the happenings in Middle Earth, and I'll find some way to post pictures and everything.

If we all work together, we should be able to put together something that we can all, as a community, be proud of, and enjoy playing.

Let's make this something to remember.

Any Questions?






RE: The Campaign to End Them All - WarhammerCrazed
Replies [7]. This Reply Posted [10/31/2006 15:43].

Alright people, we're getting a lot of good responses, which I like. I've spent some time, and typed up some rules, and I think I'll post some right now actually, and see if they help answer any questions. First of all, regarding wether rohan will start in edoras etc, yes, yes the races will start in the place where they would normally. Here's some "teasers" of how each place is organized.

Evil:

Land Name Isengard (320)
Starting Hero Sauroman, Lurtz, Uruk Hai Captain
Race Uruk-hai
Points per Turn 20 points
Special Rules Siege, Fortified, Capital

Good:

Land Name Edoras (120)
Starting Hero Theoden, Eowyn, Gamling, *Grima*, Captain of Men
Race Rohan
Points per Turn 12 points
Special Rules

As long as Grima is there, roll a die every turn. On a 1-5, No army can leave Edoras
If Gandalf arrives, Grima is placed in Isengard
Knight Hood
Capital

The number in brackets next to the city name is the initial points it starts with. The heros start there, and dont count towards the initial points, however there wargear does. (Though for some special heroes, some wargear can only be purchased in certain areas. . .more on that later). The race shows what type of models can be purchased there, in this case either any Uruk-Hai models, or any Rohan models. There's a couple of special rules there that you won't quite understand, but I'll elaborate on them later.

Okay, next, to explain the points per turn number, I guess I'll show you the way the "Overworld" turn order would work (basically, how things on the big map would be organized).
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Roll for Priority:
Each side rolls four dice, and the side with the highest total roll gets priority. Then alternate each phase after this one between sides, with the side that has priority getting the first turn for each phase.

Mobilize:
Any armies you told to mobilize the previous day, mobilize now. This also goes for siege weapons, and ships. This is also when any siege weapons or boats you purchased the previous day arrive.

Calculate the daily income of points for each area:
Figure out how many points each area you control gains. Add it to the points stockpile for that area.

Spend your points:
You may now spend any points that you can. Equipment and men purchased will instantly arrive, however any siege weapons or ships that you order will arrive the next day.

Declare mobilization:
Write up any armies you want to leave their cities. They will leave the next day. Until then, they remain garrisoned.

Morning Movement:
This is the first movement phase of the day. The setting up or taking down of camps is taken care of now. Then, you declare what type of movement, and in what direction your armies will be taking. (Keep in mind, that technically, all movements happen at the same time for each side). Calculate the movement and fatigue deductions, remove them from the army, then move the army. Any armies brought into Site Range may now look at each others armies. Any armies brought into Combat Range now fight.

Afternoon Movement (same as Morning)
Night Movement (Night time battles) (same as Morning)
Dawn Movement(Night time till turn 10 battles) (same as Morning)

Calculations:
Calculate the loss of any armies that entered battle, and record them on the sheet.

End the Day
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There are two new things in there that you won't recognize, being the site range and the combat range. Basically, the site range will be larger than the combat range, and each "pin" will have one, size depending on how large points wise the army is. Basically, until a battle starts, these pins represent armies that are written up on paper, and you only get to see what's in that "pin" when you bring another army within site range. We're also trying to figure out a way to make, say, 20-30 turns in an actualy battle count as a turn of movement, so you could start the battle at morning, and then it could become afternoon, everyone moves armies on big map again, then continue the battle (this is so any nearby armies could try to join in, I haven't worked out actual numbers yet, so more on that later).



Okay, two other questions I got were in regards to how they would move on the big map, and wether or not an army could spend a turn just sitting around and then set up a palisade or something. In answer to both those questions, I've thought of rules for fatigue.

First of all, to understand this, you have to know that each pin has an army "type" either normal (standard army) cavalry (50% or more mounted, no big bases or siege weapons) and hero (only heroes, I dont have rules for this yet). I'm not sure how big the map is going to be yet, so this is just kindof experimental.

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Fatigue

Resting: Takes a turn to set up tents. Then sleep for as many phases as you want. Takes another turn to pack up.

Normal Army

Starts with 20 fatigue

Types of Movement

Walking: Fatigue -1, Distance 3
Marching: Fatigue -2, Distance 4
Sprinting: Fatigue -3, Distance 5

Bonuses/Modifiers

Army Contains Siege Weapons: -1 Distance
Going through Light/Rough Terrain: -1 Distance
Heavy Terrain/Forest/River: -1 Fatigue, -1 Distance
Mountains: -3 Fatigue, -2 Distance, can only walk. (Minimum of 1 Distance)

Resting: Each phase asleep restores 10 points of fatigue

Cavalry Army (at least 50% mounted, no large based models, no siege weapons)

Starts with 24 fatigue

Types of Movement

Trot: Fatigue -1, Distance 4
Normal: Fatigue -3, Distance 6
Gallop: Fatigue -5, Distance 8

Bonuses/Modifiers

Army Contains Siege Weapons: -1 Distance
Going through Light/Rough Terrain: -1 Distance
Heavy Terrain/Forest/River: -1 Fatigue, -1 Distance
Mountains: -3 Fatigue, -2 Distance, can only walk. (Minimum of 1 Distance)

Resting: Each phase asleep restores 8 points of fatigue




Effects of Fatigue in combat

10+ Fatigue remaining: Fight as normal

7-9 Fatigue remaining: All units move 1” less, Cavalry move 2” less

4-6 Fatigue remaining: All units move 2” less, Cavalry move 4” less

1-6 Fatigue remaining: All fight values are reduced by 1.

0 Fatigue remaining: Collapse! At the start of the battle, roll a die for each non hero. On a 1, they are removed from the battle. If that side wins, the units are returned to them. If not, they becomes prisoners.
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So, if you attack an army while they're sleeping/packing up, it'd be a battle say, with some of them asleep, infiltration, or something. Also, it allows you to run away, and now you cant just sprint everywhere, as how tired you are affects how you battle. (The rule for 0 fatigue says somethign about prisoners, I'm still thinking about that one).

And as for Hero deaths, as alot of you asked/suggested about, the idea behind making them actually die was to make sure that Aragorn and Boromir of the White tower don't tank like mad. I am concerned, as many of you are, about all the heros dieing to early, and I think it might have to be a thing that we call when it comes time to it. But I do like the ideas about Captains being able to be promoted, and I think we should work on that one for a bit. But I don't want to see them too strong, because then they'd be upstageing the named heroes. On top of this, you can see from the area lists, that some areas have the special rule "capital". That means that you can purchase captains for that race there.

Well, I've ended up revealing/typing up a lot more than I original though I would, but I hope this give some insight onto what the plans for this are. Later on this week I'm probably going to post the tables for all the areas in the game, to give you all an idea of how it's going to be balanced, as well as some explenations as to why I've made some of the points decisions.

Thankyou all for the large amounts of help, and keep it coming!

okay number one i can't believe i actually read all that, but it was worth it! I have to say it does look good and sounds great. Of course some things can be improved, you need to set what a 'distance' is. another thing could be when setting up a camp, you could have a rule for returning to previosu camps or something. or possible the option to make a 'defended camp' which has barricades etc to protect from attack (say every session spent building adds another 4 barricades or defence of some kind). with regard to hero death you could use something like if all a hero 'dies' during a battle he can be dragged from the field by 1 unit at 1/2 movement or 2 units at full. at the end of a battle role a D6, one a 1 he dies, on a 2-5 he survives but is seriously wounded (he can't fight in the next battle, cannot sprint, or loses some of his profile abilities eg -1 defence) on a 6 the wound heals and he gets up and my act as normal again. If he is not recovered by units on his side then the same applies but -1 from the roll if his side wins, and -2 if his side loses (he also becomes a prisinor in this situation). Just my ideas, good luck and have fun

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The darkness of Moria you say? Nothing compared to the mess in my bedroom!

Interesting read. I think that although a lot of thought has been put into this, and as fun as it sounds it could be better if you created perhaps 3 versions of a campaign system. Not to be picky but i would probably find it really confusing trying to remember all those special rules, but someone else may find it a doddle. A solution would be to make a simplified version, a more challenging version and a highly detailed system so that it would appeal to all gamers.

I dont think there is a simple Lord of the Rings campaign system out there, not even through Games Workshop, so if you have some ideas perhaps start with a simple layout about how it will run. Then if you finish that maybe move onto the details like 'capital bonus' or 'fatigue'.

just my input but i would really like to see more. keep up the good work

Actually, that very reason is why my first attempt to get this Campaign working failed, too much paperwork, too many rules. Which is why I'm currently working on an Xbox game that will manage all of that, fatigue, points, movement, basically everything outside of the actual LOTR games. I was wondering what people would think of that.

And I really like those ideas for the Hero prisoners! Keepem coming!

We have tried a few times to make a very detailed campaign system with other fantasy games. The first question that comes to mind after reading this is how are you going to handle an armies size after a battle. From my limited experience of LotR, not many models are left alive after a battle (win or lose). Is there a way to recover the "casualties" from a fight, even using your ppd to replace them at a more expensive rate? If not, you will have a bunch of one-and-done armies. Fight one fight, then wait for a new one to march from you capital.

A second issue was when armies got way imbalanced points-wise. Obviously a 500pt expedition force has no chance against a 2000pt main force. While the game may play out true that the 500pt gets whomped, the campaign became a bit boring having to waste time playing the one-sided games. We ended up giving anyone outnumbered 2-1 options of running, stalling, or precision strike. Running took up not battle time, and each unit/model rolled to see if they survived (4+ to live i think, but had modifiers). Stalling consumed campaign time, but a small chance of survival for the stallers (6+ i was average think). A precision strike was just fight the battle as is, with the assumption the small strike force had a specific mission in mind.

That's actually been something that I've been concerned about a lot, but there are so many options and opportunities, I dont know where to begin.

One point I've been honestly considering, is that since each battle takes place at times during the day, after so many turns in a battle (don't have a number yet, but for example lets use 10) you go back to the main campaign map, move everything around, then continue the battles. My idea is, if at the end of those 10 turns, you have any models on the board edge, you can retreat with them, splitting from the army in combat, and leaving it.

Another idea I like, is when you start a combat, the person with less points determines from a list of preset scenarios. One option will be to all out run, which like you said, you roll dice to see who survives. Another would be the stalling, where the person running leaves as many models behind as they want, and depending on how long they hold out, it improves the chances of the others surviving.

I like the idea of how people can come back after a combat, as if they just feinted or something, but I think that would give too much strength to the winner.

One way to offset this, or negate this, is for the loser, you roll for each of his dead models, and for those that survive, they turn into prisoners. Prisoners are kept in the enemy army, and if an attack occurs, they're placed on the field of battle as well. This means that even though they'd have no wargear, they'd be able to fight and try and break free, disrupting the enemies battle plans. If the enemy, however, manages to bring the prisoners to one of their cities, the prisoners are destroyed and they get a portion of a points that those warriors would cost. Itd take some balancing to find out a good balance for this, but I think it could be promising.

Impressive really very much liked the idea.

No there are certainly somethings you need to work on but I think you know that youself.

And I would be eagerd to see the Map...

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I am the Mouth of Sauron, here him speak'

Looks like a fascinating concept on my initial scan, but far too much to read in one sitting. Too busy at the monent - I'll come back to it when I get a spare minute or 10.

The XBox idea is a interesting solution to the problem of managing the whole thing. But surely something more accessible to tabletop gamers would be better - i.e. a web-browser. Everyone here has a browser of some kind, while only a fraction of the membership would have an XBox. You don't have distribution issues either.

And of course, the XBox marketplace has a much higher expectation of quality graphics etc.

... just my thoughts on the matter.

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Dagster

I think we might be aiming at different targets, but I've posted my own ideas for a much simpler Campaign without using Fatigue and such.
You have a much more technological mind than mine no doubt but I think I'm pretty good with English, probabilities, and strategy. I think we could help each other out.

Check out "One Campaign to Rule Them All"