What is Gothmog plus the Mumak?

Mumak uses Gothmog's Might to call a Heroic Move thus greatly increasing the amount of formations the Mumak tramples over.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Aragorn, Gimli, Khazads is 575 pts into one formation to autokill an enemy formation twice. Unless your opponent is stupid enough to let them charge one or more key squads, they aren't worth the points, let alone overpowered.

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

Are 2 counsellors okay?

Not as good as 3, but they can still bounce between them, I have face 2 in one go myself.

Telchar, they could actually have 2 formations ofr Khazad Guard; one with Aragorn and Giml, and the other with Elendil and Dain. Does that sound cheesy to you?

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I think in general most combos are really too costly to play on a regular basis ,I think mordor is the only exception . I've played aragorn and gimli in a formation of axe men a couple of times , it's fun but played often would be very boring even for the controlling player , all the game focus tends to be aimed at that one unit which your opponent spends all the game avoiding and you spend all the game moving around the board in a crazy fashion.

I presume you have never used a second formation with Elendil and Dain in it in addition to the Aragorn and Gimli one.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Just couldn't afford those 4 epics unless the game was a huge points game!

Hi gothmog , I'm not allowed to play aragorn and Elendil in the same game , my gaming colleague say that its because they have to same swords and have banned the combo
Although it would be alot of points to play on two characters .

So, the fact that they lived 3,000 years apart didn't ban them first?

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

NLJT, yes it costs a lot, but in 2,000pts it can be afforded.

DocDeath, well, it should be banned as it makes no sense unless you're using the profile of one of them to represent another hero from that time period who has no model.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

That sounds like over 1200 pts to me. Any horde army will make mincemeat of them. In 2000 pts I could have Gorgoroth horde, Khamul, Betrayer, Knight of Umbar, Tainted, Dwimmerlaik, Gothmog, plus 3-4 siege bows and some more Morannons. Any bets?

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

Swap Tainted for Shadow Lord or undying (yes the Undying does well in the Gorgoroth Orc Horde.

But I get your point, just because that list is even better doesn't stop the other one from being good.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Isengard Gunline then, not a very overpowered list.

Saruman 240
Thrydan 50
Druzhag 110
Khardush 100

5x Uruk Hai + Xbows- 3 coy @105 = 525
Uruk Hai +shields - 4 coy - 175
Uruk Hai + shields - 4 coy - 175
5x Mordor Siege Bow - 1 coy @ 50 = 250

And then a little bit of this and that.

That list would pump out not only 120 S4 crossbow shots a turn, but also 5 S8 siege bows and 3 spells of Ruin combo's. Voice of Saruman would most likely stop charges on essental units, and the shield Uruks with your "this and that" (most likely Dunlendings), with Spiders summoned by Druzhag to the back, would create an absolute splattering.

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

Isengard 'gunline' is an overpowered list, but you forgot to ally in the Betrayer to put in one of the crossbow units.

The Khazad/Aragorn etc combo is arguably the weakest of the power lists because of its cost ut against 'friendly' armies would still win.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I didn't ally in the Betrayer since I wanted to save points for the 5 siege bows. And it's not very overpowered, it'd loose against any of the other lists you mentioned (ecxept when Isengard is played very well and Mordor very bad, the Mordor RAF).

I sincerely doubt that.

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"... Telchar wrought it in the deeps of time."
-On Andùril, The Lord of the Rings

As someone stated before each of these list does have it's downside +5 wraith and Gothmog isn't cheap (635 points without Orcs) those are points there opposition have to design a list to defeat them.

As for the Isengard list above I'm thinking lots of Wood Elves (elven cloaks so you can't shoot them) and a High Elf cohort formation with Thranduil in it and stand 19'' away shooting (out of range of there spells) and when they send there Uruks w/shields move and shoot until they are far away form there archers (if they send them both break them apart with Thranduils Wilderness spells) then use the cohort to fight them and Epic Strike there weak non combat caster heroes. Kardush is F3 if Thranduil uses Epic Strike and calls the Duel he can't lose He would be 7 (10-3) higher +1 for calling it +1 for the minimum he could roll the table so 9 higher Kardush could at max roll a 6 so Thranduil would win by 3 in a worst case scenario, in a best case he would win by 13.

I might use Gildor's Household to ambush and do it on two fronts (meaning no shield bonus) as Gildor has F7 and Widerness Mastery 2 so is almost as good as Thranduil at fighting, he would have no problem with caster heroes an could attack the Siege Bows from behind.

I too am a Historical gamer, and I am also familiar with the Warhammer Historical series (I was an author on the now defunct Divine Wind supplement). WOTR has a system that reminds me of the old style of miniature games back in the 80's, but with the innovativeness of more modern games.

For me, the think that grabbed me and made me want to play this game was the fact that you can recreate the films. What I mean by this is that it is quite possible for a group of heroes in the game to take on hordes of troops, as they did many times in the films. The game's might system is where I think the game particularly shines, and lends itself to magnificient tactical play. The might system is what makes the game WOTRish, and without it I don't think it would have been possible to create a game that was anything but a historical game, only with the Orcs being used as Mongols or the Rohan being used as Anglo Saxons.

Being a historical gamer, the system was at first hard to live with; for example, shooting is not simultaneous. However, it is very clear now why it was designed that way, and it makes perfect sense. Captains and epic heroes can change this by skillful use of their might points. Heroes are what make the game (much like the films).

Like all games, there are flaws in the system, and not all armies are balanced. There are some perfect combinations, such as Dain and Aragorn in the same unit, which can ruin a small-point game. However, I have always felt that when playing games that are at least 1500+ points the games balance out, and this is again becuase most of the powerful combinations can only be used if they have might left.

With that said, I have been playing the game for 3 years now, and I now have collected hordes (and I do mean hordes) of troops. My armies include every single force, except Hobbits and Mahud troops. Like others have stated, the game is quite expensive. Units in this game require 8 foot or 2 mounted. I find it funny that this is one of the few games where it is actually CHEAPER ($$ wise) to field Cavalry! Still, the game requires lots of foot troops. For example, I have over 300 dunlending troops (there is photos of it on this site), and at even 20% off I spent over $1200 for it all.

Sad though, I have the LARGEST collection on the West Coast, I might even say America, maybe the world? But the game is totally dead here. I only know 4 people who play, and this is not on a regular basis. I do hope that the game gets a reboost. Rumors I had heard was that it was going to be dropped and made into a Specialist game. Hopefully with the new movie comig out (which will have the assault on Dol Guldur and Battle of Five Armies in it), the game will be reborn.

Brian

Some thread magic going on.... hehe but it's all good.

I do love the flair and scale of WotR, and combined with the theme (battles in Middle Earth) I enjoy the system and its implementation. Sure there aresome potholes in the road and we desperately need a revised and consolidated 2nd edition, but, out of the box the WotR setup is fun. I am looking to expand to ancients wargames myself, but WotR will be the heart of my table top experience, and just is rewarding in a way that the SBG is lacking.

I'll confess to being an unashamed owner of a handy 1500 point Isengard 'gun line'. But after the time/effort/love/dedication of painstakingly converting 80-90 pikemen (which are pretty underwhelming in WotR tbh) into Crossbowmen, I feel jsutified in unleashing hell on the enemy from a withering bararge of bolts and Ruin spells. Woodelves? mm no problem, just charge them, their pesky cloaks won't withstand the hooked isengard blades for long After all Crossbowmen are simply Heavily armoured Uruk-HAi sans shields... I will say the biggest scare I had was actually from an army of High Elves, well positioned and with effective use of epics they were munching through my Crossbowmen with ease. Overpriced High Elves may be but they can still pack a punch.

However, I have more than just the 'elf-shredders' I love to experiment and take lists such as Burduhrs band of Cave trolls, or a goblin horde, or an eclectic mix of mighty mosnters, or even a stolid band of Gondorians. I think, if you have the time/willingness/and moolah, WotR is great for playing out 'What ifs' and trying new formations and variations rather than relying on one 'killer' list. I once had a great time taking a (technically illegal) all ent list against a goblin horde...

I get to play WotR too, on average 1x a week for 18 months now, and it still retains its 'buzz' to try new things. Currently a group of us are experimenting with a beta test of some siege rules for WotR...

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A second Edition for The War of the Ring:http://wessexcodex.wordpress.com

Taking the War in Middle earth to a new level!

Siege rules sound good you should post them up here if you can, I tried a couple of siege rule sets for SBG but they never really felt right. I think WOTR has that feel of large armies and battles that would make a siege feel much more realistic