WotR versus Warhammer Series (WH:FB and WAB)

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:30 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Telchar wrote:

xJEDIx wrote:

Thanks for your point of view.
I don't mind to deal against evil spams or powerlists, as long as everyone could have access to them and not only one or two factions.

Everyone except Elves. Why do GW hate elves? What have they ever done wrong (except for the Kinslayings and the wars for the Silmarils, that is)

Elves have the Galadriel, Radagast, Dain, other Elven Spellcasters and Councellors etc combo.

All of which cost so much any selfrespecting list will kill you through weight of numbers and defence values.

xJEDIx wrote:

Well, concerning Elves, I dunno how they work in LOTR/WOTR but regarding with the LOTR mythos the Elves were a declining faction, most of them already in exile.
So it doesn't surprise me that Elves are scarce in WOTR/LOTR and a bit underpowered when compared with their Silmarillion cousins, who were stronger than Valar!

I meant in relativity to other factions, only a ghost-built Angmar (which is a bad idea, go Carn Dum) is anywhere near as failing. And the Elves were still strong enought to raze Dol Guldur to the ground, so they were quite strong.Oh, and Silmarillion Elves were far, far weaker then the Valar. They were just FAR, FAR stronger then in the 3rd age.

Xelee wrote:

I don't think GW hates the Elves in WOTR... they just over-estimated the degree to which their stats would help them. Their heroes are pretty good. You can have a 1000pt list that can even fit in a decent amount of their over-costed base troops just by taking Galadriel then all of the cheapest Epic Heroes the Elves have (who Galadriel can keep recharging with might). .

Well, they gave them the crappiest battlehosts ever as well. 75 pts for gaining priority on a tie when Celeborn and Galadriel are in the same company? Seriously?
You can fit in a relatively proper amount by that combo, after which you just get slaughtered for your low defence and lack of hitting power, not that and numbers.

mastermanje · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:36 pm

Telchar wrote:

Well, they gave them the crappiest battlehosts ever as well. 75 pts for gaining priority on a tie when Celeborn and Galadriel are in the same company? Seriously?
You can fit in a relatively proper amount by that combo, after which you just get slaughtered for your low defence and lack of hitting power, not that and numbers.

The Mirkwood battlehost is pretty good, as your elves will get enough defence from their trees, can shoot enemies in their back by plopping out of a forest area and use some allies from other factions to do the massive-power job. You just need to use them right :yay:

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:42 pm

Telchar - leaving Battlhsosts aside, because like Legendaries a lot of them just do not stack up - there are better and worse Elven lists. I've gone on at length before about the issues with the Elven list but what posters above were probably referring to combo-wise was the infamous Epic Tranquility Bunker that some use in 2000pts games. I can think of a number of counters but people have won events with it so it is a fair enough example. I've seen the right hero choices (and eventually judicious use of allied Numenorians/Arnorians) combined with Galadrim with Shields, Wood Elves with Bows and High-Elf Cohort, perform pretty well too.

Heh, who'd have thought I'd be defending the Elven list? Talk about Devil's Advocate :lol:

Draugluin · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:57 pm

mastermanje wrote:

Telchar wrote:

Well, they gave them the crappiest battlehosts ever as well. 75 pts for gaining priority on a tie when Celeborn and Galadriel are in the same company? Seriously?
You can fit in a relatively proper amount by that combo, after which you just get slaughtered for your low defence and lack of hitting power, not that and numbers.

The Mirkwood battlehost is pretty good, as your elves will get enough defence from their trees, can shoot enemies in their back by plopping out of a forest area and use some allies from other factions to do the massive-power job. You just need to use them right :yay:

The Rivendell battlehost is what gives you priority on a tie and it's 50pts. Rivendell and Mirkwood got pretty decent battlehosts, but Lothlorien got a couple horrible ones.

Telchar · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:00 pm

Xelee and mastermanje, you basically prove my point, as your advice for a good elven list is ally in some Gondor (the only low priced heavy hitters for good are in Gondor)

Xelee · **Posted:** Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:41 pm

Telchar, if your point is that "GW hates Elves" then I don't really think it is reasonable to claim that the fact you can build a good Elven list, and that the army list allows you to make it even better via a few allies, proves your point. GW hates Elves because they published a set of rules that allows you to make a good army list with or without allies?

FWIW, I think the core of the 'problem' lies not just in the Elven list, it lies in the Gondor, Moria, and Mordor lists. Elves are a reasonable matchup for the rest.

mastermanje · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:57 am

Elves may seem weak, but many players just get killed easily by some tricky elven combos, such as tranquility archery, or galadhrim knights+celeborn and galadriel's magic support.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:12 pm

galadhrim knights are awfle.

WayUnderTheMountain · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:52 pm

I like how the discussion went from which game series is better to whether or not GW hates elves. I know someone who thinks elves are getting screwed over in both WOTR and Warhammer but in all fairness, it only appears that way because, as Xelee said, other armies are just cheezy/broken/overpowered/underpriced/don'tcarewhatyoucallititsnotfair. As for what was the original topic, I prefer Warhammer because with my Warhammer group we generally don't play power-gaming armies. On the other hand, in WOTR each member of the group has played at least one power-gaming army (1 Gondor, 1 Moria, 2 Fallen Realms) because it feels like the only way to win. EVER.

xJEDIx · **Posted:** Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:22 pm

That's why I really love Warmachine!
You want a winning formula?! All of them!
You want a game-breaking faction?! All of them!
You want to go over the internetz and present me a tournament winning list?! Go ahead, I would love to set traps and see you falling on them!

I have the WOTR book and I gave it a read. It's interesting but it resembles me much of what is Warhammer Fantasy Battles right now, so I guess I will try to convince my gaming group to go into the good old days of WH:FB 7th Edition instead.

Thanks y'all!

Xelee · **Posted:** Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:19 am

Fair enough - WOTR's lists are only as balanced as GW's lists tend to be. If you'd like to play something that is more tournament like, then a properly balanced Ancients/Medievals game like Impetus or (so I am told) Hail Caesar, both of which have had LOTR lists done for them, might be the better bet.

Wayunderthemountain, it's not that bad - but Telchar does have a point about how expensive it is to make a really durable Elven list and some lists do get to be quite tough for a relatively low price. Gondor, in particular, is about the worst matchup I could imagine for Elves - though I guess an 'Elven bunker' could last a while if the player was lucky enough to keep winning the dice-off for order of heroic/epic actions in the charge phase.

I don't like Galadrim Knights either.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:17 am

WayUnderTheMountain wrote:

On the other hand, in WOTR each member of the group has played at least one power-gaming army (1 Gondor, 1 Moria, 2 Fallen Realms) because it feels like the only way to win. EVER.

What makes Gongor, Moria, Fallen Realms power gaming armies?

Jazlotus · **Joined:** Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:23 pm **Posts:** 170

Yeah I though it was just Mordor that was a power gaming army? So in reality nearly every army could be a power gaming one?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:35 pm

Except Elves, Rohan and Angmar, unless extremly well comboed.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:40 pm

What makes an army a power gaming one?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:45 pm

Using lots of overpowered models together and/or a combo of models whose combined efforts re so powerful they are almost undefeatable. They are usually only defeated by other power-gaming armies. Would you like an example or two, or are you ok?

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:52 pm

But I think this is part of the game, don't you? I like how you can put together different combos to play a game, yeah I know that if a player constantly plays an Aragon + Gimli with 2/H's is cheesy but if you knw he's gonna play that all the time it's easy to plan around, but there's nothing wrong with combos because very army can put together a different combo of some kind, what's your opinion?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:02 pm

I like certain kinds of combos, I just don't like the seriously overpowered ones.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Which are the seriously overpowered ones?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:14 pm

1. 5+ Wraiths + Gothmog + Morannon Orcs
2. 5+ Wraiths + Gothmog + Gorgoroth Orc Horde
3. 3 Councellors + anything
4. Aragorn + Gimli + Khazad Guard
5. Gothmog + Mumak
6. Winged Nazgul Battlehost as whole army
7. Lots of Arbalesters + the Betrayer

WotR versus Warhammer Series (WH:FB and WAB)

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