Gothmog - master of battle

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Draugluin wrote:

This means that both actions are simultaneous,

As has been mentioned several times in this thread, H/E Actions cannot be simultaneous, they occur in a particular order, the roll off is only used to determine which player gets to pick an action first. Since Gothmog cannot use his ability until a player picks an action and actions do not happen simultaneously, the action Gothmog calls has to occur after the triggering action.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:00 pm

As said earlier FogottenLore, that is unlikely to be the designers' intention. They wanted him to be able to counteract, see some of the battle reports.

Beowulf03809 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:14 pm

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Finally, people who agree with me, I think. However, I believe the discussion is now closed.

Wait wait wait wait wait

We're AGREEING with GothmogTheWerewolf? Now I'm really confused. I though all the PMs have been saying to disagree? Oh wait. I probably shouldn't have posted that. Oh...I probably shouldn't be posting this either...

Jobu · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:17 pm

The problem arises with the way the queue is set up, according to the rulebook, and the wording of the special rule. The queue for actions is set up before anything else, and you do not have to declare what action(s) in advance, only that you will perform one. The queue is set up by a roll off at the beginning of the phase, there is no mechanic/rule for changing this queue once the queue of actions have begun. The rule says you alternate picking which hero(es) act, then perform those actions in the order they were chosen.

Since you do not have to declare what actions you are taking before a hero actually acts in the queue, Gothmog can not choose to duplicate and become part of the queue at the beginning. If one plays it this way (he uses his special at the beginning of the phase before knowing what action is being called) he has chosen to use his duplicate rule(he becomes part of the alternating series of actions at this point) and may end up duplicating something detrimental(i.e. epic sacrifice). I do not think this is in continuity with his rule. So it seems illogical and against his rule to enter the queue at the beginning of the phase and not be able to "may"i.e. choose, which action he duplicates. This would also be difficult if there happens to be more than one action within 12 inches.

-I feel like Vizzini.

His rule does not say he forces another roll off and there is no mechanic/rule in the book describing how it would be done in the middle of the queue. I am attempting to stay away from the fluff in the rule. The way I see it there are only two ways of handling this, 1-When gothmog chooses to "immediately call an identical action" it is inserted in the queue immediately after the duplicated action, 2-When gothmog chooses to duplicate an action it is put at the end of the queue. Both of these allow gothmog to choose which action(s) he copies, allow multiple uses of his rule in the same phase and maintain the queue of actions.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:20 pm

Beowulf03809 wrote:

GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:

Finally, people who agree with me, I think. However, I believe the discussion is now closed.

Wait wait wait wait wait

We're AGREEING with GothmogTheWerewolf? Now I'm really confused. I though all the PMs have been saying to disagree? Oh wait. I probably shouldn't have posted that. Oh...I probably shouldn't be posting this either...

so that's why everyone was disagreeing.

Jobu, why on earth would he automatically go last.

Leonardis · **Joined:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:06 pm **Posts:** 891

I agree with gothmogwerewolf.

It is simple and straight forward, when an action is called in a phase you deal with it then ie move, shoot etc. If two players both call in the same phase "I want to use a might point and complete a heroic move" then Gothmog can also call it for free and the d6 would decide who goes first.

Why would you say "I want to do an action in any phase and not say what it was ie keep it a secret???" please tell me if I ammissing something, which SHOULD be straight forward....?

Leonardis · **Joined:** Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:06 pm **Posts:** 891

In the spirit of the game it would probably be best to agree how to use Gothmog before a game so that at least there would be an agreement.... I don't think there will be one on this thread!

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:45 pm

The rules for heroic actions states "The order of Heroic actions will sometimes allow Heroes to anticipate the enemy and and cancel their Heroic action." All Heroic actions are called at the beginning of a phase. Thus, if a hero calls a Heroic Charge within 12" of Gothmog, he immediately calls one of his own. Then the players have a roll off to see who chooses which hero first, allowing Gothmogs player to potentially cancel out the other players heroic charge. For most of the Epic actions, this will remain the same. Epic actions will need to be figured out the same way. If a player calls an epic strike, then epic duel, and his opponent copies both, the player that wins the roll off will have to decide if he wants his hero with high fight or with a decent chance of winning the duel, then the next player will decide which one goes next. Since heroic actions are "queued" at the beginning of the turn, you need to figure which ones go when. Epic actions will need a bit more thought. If a hero calls ONLY an epic strike, it won't matter if Gothmog calls it first or not because the outcome will be the same.

If I didn't make any sense, I'm sorry.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:59 pm

Except for the fact that Gothmog can do more than one action, I agree.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:02 pm

His rule says "whenever", so he aught to be able to call more than one a turn, not the same action multiple times. In all he should cost AT LEAST 200 pts. 110 is way to low.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:07 pm

You misunderstood what I said, I said he can call more thanm one action, not he can call the same action multiple times. I think that the MINIMUM pts value for Gothmog should be 175, if not more.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:22 pm

I know you weren't I just added that in there for clearification. Making him the same pts value as Aragorn would be pretty fair, cause Aragorn can only spend one might a turn, whereas Gothmog can spend the equivilent of several. No orc would be that smart/powerful.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:37 pm

I agree about the pts, it shows that the designers didn't think this through properly

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

I agree with GothmogTheWerewolf...

+1

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:42 pm

Houserules/actual LotR fans/smart people ftw.

Hilbert · **Joined:** Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am **Posts:** 2088

to the above

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:43 pm

You have to know you're opponent well before you can do that

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:48 pm

I do. So I can get away with it. But the only time I edit the rules, I make it an even trade, Making all the wizards more powerful not just one and so on.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:51 pm

Yes, that is a good idea. If you want help looking for more, you can always visit Xelee's site, he has several house rules.

Draugluin · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:54 pm

Mostly, I'm sticking to the SBG and I have most of them done. I might post them here sometime.

Gothmog - master of battle

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