I agree with Jobu, it does NOT say afterwards.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Exactly. the ability does not say "after" but it is not possible for him to use his ability until after the enemy hero has already called an action, at which point the enemy hero has already called an action.

Jobu, I have to hand it to you to have a post that both sides are using as support for their position.

Sorry for this but now I'm confused. So what do you do? do you roll off or not? let me give an example:-

Dwarf Kings champion calls epic Dual against Khamul, Gothmog immediately calls epic Dual back against the Kings Champion
What happens?
1- you shake off, Gothmog wins and kills Kings champion
or
2- Kings champion Epic Duals Khamul and kills Khamul. Then Gothmog Epic Duals Kings Champion?

Well, I am not taking sides, just commenting on some of the logic behind the rule. I am avoiding the "compare it to SBG" trap and trying to keep an open mind about the special rule and how it may play out in the different phases, and WHEN it plays out. I think this may need some clarification from GW.

This may get me in trouble but.....IMHO since he is not using might he should not be in the "might queue" and not get the roll off. In this interpretation there will no doubt be some he just can not do. Others he would be able to call, like heroic duel, epic cowardice, epic challenge etc. I believe the book says you must state you are going to call an action, and with what character(both sides), then roll off to see who gets to go first. Gothmog is not in this initial queue so it is difficult to find a time to insert his newly called( I don't want to say it, but copied) action unless it occurs out of order and immediately after the one he.....copied.

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..

I think that it would be #2, because gothmog does not spend might, so therefore does not get in the "might queue". Another thing that seems bad would be this: he HAS to call it. Does gothmog have a choice?

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..

I think that it would be #2, because gothmog does not spend might, so therefore does not get in the "might queue". Another thing that seems bad would be this: he HAS to call it. Does gothmog have a choice?[/quote]

the book says he "May"

that is how i would play it. Option number 2! Anyone else agree with this?

Since Gothmog's rule, quoted above, says he may call an action of the same type, it does not say that he copies it and that yoou have to wait. It is treated as a normal heroic/epic action and follows the same rules. Hence, a dice off!

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

So Jobu thinks its number 2
Gothmogthewearwolf thinks its number 1. What does everyone else think? lets have a vote haha 1 or 2?

i vote number 2

How do you come to that conclusion??!!

No, it does not say you have to wait, it says that when an enemy calls an action gothmog may immediately call the same action. Gothmog's ability cannot, I say again CANNOT, trigger until an enemy hero calls an action. When that happens the enemy's action has already been called. You are saying that Gothmog can somehow go back in time and call an action that the enemy hero is about to call.

And I don't know why you are getting so hung up on the word "copy". It isn't a game defined term, it is a normal English word, when an enemy hero does something Gothmog does the same thing, that is copying.

Gothmog cannot use his ability until the enemy hero does something (calling an action). When that happens Gothmog may immediately call the same action. How does that structure result in Gothmog acting first?

I feel my previous post may have been overly aggressive. I apologize.

Let's try it this way.

Heroic/Epic Actions are never called simultaneously --- Does anyone disagree?
If 2 players want to both call actions at the same time, a dice off is used to determine which one goes first --- Does anyone disagree with this?
Gothmog is calling an Heroic/Epic Action ---- Does anyone disagree yet?

Since actions are not called simultaneously and Gothmog (when using the Master of Battle rule) is calling an action then the action Gothmog calls MUST be called either before or after the action that triggers the rule --- any disagreement?

Master of Battle can not be used until an enemy hero calls an action --- disagreement?

Since the ability cannot be used until an enemy hero calls an action, and since actions cannot be called simultaneously, then Gothmog's action must be called after the action that triggers it.


Please identify which part of this reasoning you feel does not work?

You only have to declare you are going to use a Herioc/Epic action. You don't have to say who is calling or what till after the roll off. So there is nothing to copy till the order is made and actions are being determined. Immediately after 1 is 2, yes?

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

Very clear unbiased and simple reasoning forgottenlore well done
WOW when I started this discussion I didn't expect such a explosion of replies ,obviously it's not just me that gets a little annoyed at gothmogs great abilities , I think your suggestions don't detract from this but help to balance and add to the enjoyment of the game,thanks very much for everyone's comments.
I think that options 2 make senses.

ALL heroic/epic actions of the same type come into effect at the same time. It does not matter if the player has literally to do it first. Think about it this way. Gothmog watches the movements of Aragorn who is edging his way towards a nearby wraith, Gothmog sees this and moves to intercept Aragorn beforehand.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

That is not true.







These passages make it quite clear that Heroic/Epic actions do not come into effect at the same time but happen in a particular order, the order in which they were picked. Since Gothmog's ability doesn't trigger until an enemy hero picks an action, his action must therefore happen after it.

That is where the book contradicts itself because it also says dice off.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

It says to dice off to determine the order



That is what I was saying 18 posts ago,


The rules are quite clear that a dice off is used to determine who picks first, not which actions are resolved first.

You dice off to see who gets to pick first (which I think is high roll-low roll but we always roll-off since its more fun). Its the interpretation of "immediate" for Gothmog's ability you are exploiting and making a contradiction. What you are doing is called 'Rules Lawyering'. Immediate has to follow something which means it goes second. You can't immediately follow nothing. Just the fact that I have to pull out a dictionary and explain it like you are a three year old takes the fun out of the game.

When you call Herioc actions, you do not have to specify which action or who, only the intent, which is why Gothmog cannot copy it before the roll-off.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

To whom are you replying there Slythar? Me or Gothmog? (For that matter, which one of us (if either) are you agreeing with?)

To be honest, I don't think either one of us is rules lawyering. I think this is stemming from an honest misunderstanding abut what the rules say, which is why I have spent so much time trying to make it clear. for some reason many people seem to get confused by the timing of H/E Actions and the proper use of them is probably the most critical skill of the entire game so I want to make sure people understand them properly.

Hi forgottenlore
Just wanted to tell you personally that your reasoning is defiantly correct in fact it's a no brainer!!. Even my arch enemy and regular opponent agrees with you ( he plays gothmog all the time) as does my local gameswork shop. I think gothmog thewerewolf is being very biased , unreasonable and not worth IMO replying to , the question has being clearly answered.
Many thanks
DOCdeath