so it comes down to having a spearhead?
AIRC, the spearhead is selected after the charge is declared, and the charge die is rolled.
the spearhead does not exist until you declare a charge, and a spearhead can be any company from the company within charge reach of the enemy
why are you suggesting that a spearhead cannot be selected due to the formation being in terrain. the rules do not state this.

no access to rules so i will get back to you on this.



btw, eowyn killed the witchking in the book, not a hobbit.

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warmancer

ok, rules in hand
1. choose charging formation.
2. select spearhead. any company in the front rank can be spearhead.
3. choose target.
4. roll charge distance.
5. move spearhead.

for charging out of terrain, i would interpret the rules as follow.
when a formation occupying terrain, "the terrain is now considered to be the formation for the purpose of range, base contact and so on." as such, it has no flank or rear and has 360 degree. any company of the formation thus can be selected as the spear head.
the distance to contact is determined by the charging formation from any edge of the terrain/formation to the enemy unit. if the charge roll is equal to or greater than this distance (other than a roll of a "1") means the charge is successful. i would consider this charge distance as charging through difficult terrain. the spearhead is then placed into contact with the target. regardless of whether the company is in contact with with the terrain it is no longer occupying the terrain and thus will receive no defensive bonus for the terrain.


btw, i would also consider a formation charging out of defensive terrain to fall within "A Note on Charging and the Spirit of the Game."
because it makes no sense to be able to trap, or be trapped, within terrain and this would be no fun.

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warmancer

JRR Tolkien wrote:
Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
"Eowyn! Eowyn!" cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle as the great shoulders bowed before her.

Possibly a joint effort? He certainly played a hand...



Then where is it? The rules don't state this either. If it's in its tray then I know where it is, but dispersed in the terrain it occupies - where do you measure the charge from? How can I charge if i don't know where my companies actually are? The edge? The rules don't state this, why not? Could it be because you can't do it? Where's the "front rank?" Do you charge from the centre - like shooting - Good luck charging out at half speed - Would you also ignore the -1 courage test to exit because it is in the movement phase and therefore is not applicable... The expectation is that you would exit in the move phase in order that you may charge... Don't occupy if you think you will be trapped.



Now you are guessing, as there are no rules which describe this...

There are only give 2 conventions for exiting terrain, both require me to place my company outside the terrain (actually ambushers is a third), none of them involves charging, all prohibit further movement (I think - again i don't have the rules with me). Surely you need to take your lead from the examples given in the rules, this is the logical approach.



Fair call, but as i stated earlier, I don't believe this situation is very likely to occur - what a balrog doing hiding in terrain anyway - Glorfindal isn't allowed to.

That said, you're free to do what you like when you play the game. All the best.

I think the issue still boils down to; troops in a terrain feature are either

1) merely passing through, still in their company bases, and thus still 'in formation'.
Think of it perhaps in terms of napoleonic battalions, that may be in attack column, line of march or firing line. They are still in formation and can be commanded by their commanding officers, to charge or whatever. (I realize this is fluff but I am just trying to put it into context for you - like the Balrog scenario)

2) Occupying the wood. Dispersed to its perimeter in a defensive scatter. And thus not so easy for a commanding officer to get them back into formation and charge cohesively. Hence the requirement to move out of terrain by ceasing to occupy it, form up back into a fighting formation, and thus then charge as normal with charge rules from the position now outside the terrain.


This is the rules as written, as I see it.

My only caveat, was to allow said dispersed Occupying formation, to reform on inside edge of terrain feature, and charge from there. This is not rules as written, but a common sense response to a problem with the rules.

==========================================================

Having had this lengthy discussion, Celebdrial and I are looking to dump the OCCUPANCY rules. Any formation fully within a terrain feature, get its defensive bonus. There will be no charge bonus against units in a terrain feature. Any bits sticking out can be shot at or charged without any such penalties. Shooting from terrain will probably still be half companies and round up, that can shoot out. Range from shooters base edge. Likewise spells ranges. There will be no dispersing into terrain.

There may be a small caveat, on terrain 'intention'; for example a terrain piece may be slightly too small to hold a single company base for example, but if this is the case then by agreement, it can be considered in the terrain. Here I am thinking about small buildings, and not larger features like woods/forests.

We will have to play test these rules.

We also need to consider any implications for 'ambushers' deployment.

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

When occupying a terrain piece all you companies are assumed to be spread all around its perimeter, do you really think its logical that these troops can reorganise themselves for a charge and move the same distance as a formation in the open? If nobody can get the rules through to you, why not apply a bit of common sense instead.

yes i do
a formation occupying a terrain has no rear or side, only the front. a spearhead needs only to be in the front. i think this meets this criteria.


commonsense:
it is more commonsense that a formation cannot gather itself for a charge because it is in terrain, even if it is a monster, which cannot disperse itself, than to allow charging from terrain?
better to trap a balrog than to allow dispersed men to charge?


remember that the trays are movement trays rather than rank and file formation.


@Celebdriel

take any company in the formation in terrain
select this as your spearhead
declare where it is exiting terrain
roll charge distance
place spearhead
place remaining companies.

what is ambiguous about that?


in addition
There are no GW games that prohibit charging from terrain, not SBG, warhammer, 40k, warmaster, epic, or even BFG
and AFAIK no miniature games from privateer press, mongoose, or battlefront prohibit it either
it is just not "common" sense
in fact, i know of no wargame where units cannot charge from terrain. this is simply not realistic representation of combat.



over all i am surprised why so many of y'all read the rules the way you do.
but i do not believe i am rewriting the rules

anyone know how to pose this to GW for clarification?

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warmancer

Actually what I think you really want to do is to have the ability to charge your opponent because you forgot to/or didn't "move out" in your move phase, or because you had priority and you opponent has moved so that they exposed a flank/rear to you, and are threatening another unit of yours. This is precisiely why I think the rules are written this way, to make people think of the implications of what they do or don't do.



P25 defines what a company is, and it uses the area of the tray to define it. The tray represents the area the comany occupies and it's facing. I disagree with you.



This may be your interpretation, but you are adding a mechanism. The charge rules do not tell us to "place a spearhead", nor to "Declare where it is exiting", nor "place remaining companies".

Under Defensible terrain p52 we are told the purpose of Occupying a terrain feature is to "Hold" it against attacks. But that the formation holding them will sacrifice their manouverability for a turn or two, and "a cunning foe can take advantage of that". I wonder what that means, there's no sacrifice if I can just charge out when I want to. I should not Occupy it if I donot wish to hold it. Hence I should not get the def bonus if I later wish to charge out.

ALL the rules for Defensible Terrain features are covered under the heading Denfensible Terrain. P52-55. They are not covered in the movement section, or charge section or anywhere else (Ambushers is an exception because it is a special ability) - That is because they are a "special" exception. We are told how to occupy a terrain feature and how to exit a terrain feature. Shooting into, out of and charge it (each of these elements have their own section in the rules, why do they not cover charging out?). Charging out is not covered because it is not allowed without first exiting the terrain. If you could charge out you would expect the rules to be written here.



Are there any GW or other games which allow for occupying the terrain in this way? If not, why would you be surprised that you cannot charge out? Comon sense maybe not, but these are the way the rules are. I also play a rule set which allow Cavalry an advantage when charging infantry in woods. Not common sense either, but it's there.

i didn't forget actually. i planned for it (charging out from terrain)


I am submitting the following to GW for clarification:

In War of the Ring, can a formation occupying defensive terrain charge out of defensive terrain and how would this work.
Items we have reviewed but it doesn't seems to answer our question. The most recent FAQ also does not address this issue.

1. In The Charge Phase rules, p42, there are no prohibition against a formation in terrain from charging. Should there be?

2. In the Defensive Terrain rules, p52, there are also no prohibition against a formation in terrain from charging. Should there be?

3. In the Defensive Terrain rules, p53, is the rule for "Exiting a Terrain Feature" apply to just movement of terrain? Or is this the only voluntary way for a formation to exit a terrain? (the other being losing a fight and being forced out)

4. If a formation can charge out of terrain, can any company be the spearhead?

5. If a formation can charge out of terrain, do you choose where it leaves the terrain, as this may affect whether you are charging an opponent front or side?

6. If a formation can charge out of terrain, does it also count as charging through difficult terrain? i.e. the charge distance is doubled?

7. If a formation can charge out of terrain, does it need to first pass a courage test to do so?

8. If a formation cannot charge out of terrain, can that lead to situation where a formation cannot physically come within 1" of an enemy company in the movement phase and thus effectively become trapped in the terrain? For instance, a balrog within a small square walled field surrounded by 4 formations of one company of hobbits each place 1" away from the terrain.

9. If a formation cannot charge out of terrain, to exit a defensive terrain, what would happen if there are enemy companies within 1"? After passing a leadership test to exit, could you place the first company partially within the terrain, 1" away from the enemy, and be considered passing through terrain rather than occupying terrain?

10. Can any formation declare it is passing through terrain rather than occupying the terrain? Not just formation too large to occupy terrain?

11. Can a formation occupying terrain declare it is no longer occupying terrain, forgo any defensive benefit, and be considered as passing through difficult terrain? If so, how will the companies of that formation be placed?

11. If a formation occupying terrain can declare it is no longer occupying terrain, forgo any defensive benefit, and be considered as passing through difficult terrain, will it then be able to move without the restriction of p53 in "Exiting a Terrain Feature" ?

12. If a formation occupying terrain can declare it is no longer occupying terrain, forgo any defensive benefit, and be considered as passing through difficult terrain, can it then charge out/through the difficult terrain?

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warmancer

Let us know the outcome, unfortunately sometimes even the GW email boys get it wrong. (I know this because of the response I got to an email which conflicted with the battle reps in White dwarf).

You might like to ask a question like this:

Can a formation "Occupying" a defensible terrain feature, charge out in the charge phase if it has not exited in the move phase. (Or similar.)

You might also find that people will disregard a reply in favour of your interpretation, unless it comes out in an FAQ or Errata. (It happened to me)

All the best.

When I think about the global conceptual differences between WoTR and SBG, the existing WoTRs written rules and the arguments made on this chat board, I'm in the "no charging from defensive terrain" camp. The phases within a turn are explicit; and the rules, as written for each phase, are specific however not always sensitive. An omission of information within the rule book should not be presumed to be permissive of said omitted actions. We should use only the information actually provided to determine allowable courses of action.

Along that line of thinking, I agree with the the following arguments that were thoughtfully made by others:

A formation occupying a feature is dispersed throughout said feature having no ranks or form to its formation, and therefore cannot have a spearhead. Only upon exiting in the move phase (p53) does it regain a shape that allows for a spearhead to be chosen.

To exit or not to exit, that is the question...(p53). Every company in the formation must be placed within 6 inches of the terrain as per exiting a terrain feature. A company must be in contact with the terrain feature. (This is inconsistant with charging - thus a formation must move to exit, then charge in the charge phase.) A unit that exits a terrain feature may not move further that phase.

Little do they know that you pulled this on me . I was NOT planning on you charging from that feature.

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..

alright guys, keep it civill. Just vote yes or no re: charging from defensive features so we can play with smiles on Thursday night.

Everybody except Fracas has voted no, but we are all wrong :/

(Sorry but I found that funny)

It is, bear in mind this is not the only forum he's tried shopping this one at.

I think emailing GW is the best course at this stage. However, the very fact that a whole lot of questions had to be tagged on the end about how to do it if it turned out to be possible does kind of indicate "the rules don't allow it."

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

GW US customer service says a formation occupying defensive terrain can charge .

ofcourse they decline to offer written confirmation until the FAQ is updated


so yes, you are all wrong as it turns out

in all seriousness, thanks for all your comments.
remember that numerical superiority does not trump truth.

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warmancer

silly comment regarding shopping.
i don't play with you or any of you for that matter
i don't need your approval for house rules, just my club's agreement on how to play it until it is FAQd
i have no interest to sell anything or buy anything from faceless internet posters when you get down to it

also if you read my questions to GW i worded it for clarification
rather than as a sales pitch

i asked here (LotR gamers) and on Warseer (GW gamers) to get a sense how the WotR community plays
the definitive answer would have never came from you but rather GW

a very disappointing attitude, Xelee.


so i did email them
and talked to them
and the word given to me is that you can indeed charge out of occupied defensive terrain

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warmancer

Hey Fracas, did they explain how? Potentially you can charge an opponent in the flank or rear, depending on the shape of the terrain even if they're facing you!!!

Also can one of the UK guys email GW UK and see if they get the same response?

Fracas posted quite a long 'question' to GW, and if they have answered positively then I would like to see the form of the reply so we can all see and read it for ourselves. Not that I am doubting the reply, but just so I can see it in context, and as Celebdriel says, find the mechanism to apply it.

I still find the whole issue confusing.

Have they just said ' Yes can charge out of terrain' but haven't clarified the status of the charging unit in the terrain; 'passing through' or 'occupying'.

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

Hi Fracas, I am a bit confused about what has you all riled up? The best thing I can figure is that maybe you have the wrong end of the stick about what I posted? I don't know about you, but when I go shopping, I go looking for what I want. I kind of expect to be sold to, and don't really try and sell my money. If one place doesn't have what I want, I'll probably try somewhere else, and possibly even somewhere else again. So Celebdriel posted that it was funny, and I posted that I thought it was funny too and... that emailing GW seemed the best course. Which you did, and they seem to have what you want.

However, since there are actually no rules for how this works - I really hope the FAQ is nothing like the Witchking one and more like: "whoops, we see now that we didn't explain this in the same way as we explained the rest of movement and shooting from these pieces. Here are some rules and restrictions, and here are some diagrams to illustrate them."

If the idea is that this is just going to be you charge out just like moving out,.. then I think it is going to be a bit problematic!

And why would I be against houserules? that would be be a bit odd.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com