When Hero is "Lost In Battle" and I have to play "Take The Hight Ground" scenario to save him. can I use influence and experience points I gained so far to promote, upgrade and get reinforcements before playing "Take The Hight Ground" scenario?

EDIT: when we think about it, it seems that this "Take The Hight Ground" game will count towards the experience, influence, injuries, casualties...etc as normal. if thit assumption is right then we should be able to use the existing points before it.
please let me know what you think as this for sure will affect our next game.

And one more question, does the Hero in such enforced scenario counts towards the company total points, or company count for the sake of company break point. guess not as he works as an objective, but thought I'd make sure. only an objective that can defend himself.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Thanks a lot for this! Not only do I now have access to the battle company rules, I also found the Beacons are Lit article with a bunch of Fiefdom convertions that I have been searching all over the internet. It was linked in the Dol Amroth company. Gold coin for you!

And to answer the question, the hero shouldn't count for the points as you are not using the hero, it is just an objective.

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I would say that you can use the influence and experience points you gained so far to promote and upgrade and then play the "take the High Ground Scenario". At least that is how I understand it.

As far as the hero goes, I agree with Maermaethor that he doesnt count towards the points as he is the objective.

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I added a link to a single PDF link containing all battle companies for easier download. see the original post on first page.

Enjoy!

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

So I have played a game of BC of my wood elves vs my girlfriends easterlings. There is a 14 point difference between the two and i found the game to be quite balanced despite that. Mind you this was a first game and I will keep you updated on how it feels after a few games.

EDIT: Oh and thanks for posting the pdf.

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Thanks for the feed-back, and yes please keep updating.

I expanded reinforcement table to add more units variety. I think in such case a point limit is neccessary to keep the game balance, so it could be 200pts max for each side. Here is what I think could be the Moria and Dwarves tables. let me know what you think.

Moria:

#Influence table: (D6)
1- none
2- orc sh
3- orc s
4- orc b
5- choose one of the above
6- Choose one of the above, or roll on Fame table

#Fame table:
1-2 prowler (2H/b/sh)/giant spider
3-4 bat swarm/wild warg/drummers team
5-6 cave troll (Hammer)/shaman/warg chieftain

Dwarves:

#Influence table: (D6)
1- none
2- Warrior/Ranger 2H
3- Warrior sh/Ranger Th
4- Warrior/Ranger b
5- Choose from above
6- Choose one from above, of roll on Fame Table

#Fame table:
1-2 Khazad/Vault Wardens
3-4 Iron Guard/Ballista
5-6 Shield Bearer

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

Right, i decided to create a Dunland Battle company. Crazy i know but i like them a lot. The starting force is 59pts and that was the size of most battle companies.

NOTE: im using the points for dunlending warriors from the TT book not legions of middle-earth. I didn't know which to use so i grabbed the closest one. EDIT: just looked at the FAQ which says they we should use the TT points. FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... dition.pdf

Dunland Starting Force

4 Wild Men of Dunland with hand weapons
3 Wild men of Dunland with two-handed weapons
2 Dunlending Warriors with bows
1 Dunlending Warrior with two-handed weapon

Dunland Promotion Table
Troop Type Promotion Option

Wild man with hand weapon TO Dunlending Warrior All weapons and equipment are traded for that of a Dunlending warrior. Alter the warrior's stats appropriately. The warrior may choose a bow or a shield at no additional cost.

Wild man with two-handed weapon TO Dunlending Warrior All weapons and equipment are traded for that of a Dunlending warrior. Alter the warrior's stats appropriately. The warrior may choose a bow or a two-handed at no additional cost.

Dunland Equipment Options
Weapon Cost in Influence Points

Shield 1
Bow 1
Horse (Heroes only) 2
Two-handed weapons 1

Dunland Influence Table
D6 Result
1 No reinforcements
2 Wild man with hand weapon
3 Wild man with two-handed weapon
4 Choose one of the above
5 Choose two of the above
6 Roll again of the table below

D6 Result
1-2 Dunlending warrior with two-handed weapon
3-4 Dunlending warrior with bow
5-6 Dunlending warrior with hand weapon and shield

Special Rule

Any Dunland hero can select this special rule instead of rolling for a new special rule on one of the existing tables. Hardy. A hero with this ability has suffered the worst the Middle-Earth can throw at him and still come out on top. When using Fate rolls the hero may re-roll the dice but the second roll stands.

And thats it. Any tips/suggestion/comments are very welcome.
Cheers

Cyndra the Grey

@MuslimRohirrim as for the influence table for moria, i think the bat swarm and the troll are too much. I would make the prowler 1-3 and then 4-6 could be a shaman. And for the dwarves, I think the vault wardens and ballista should be removed, mostly because a roaming battle company would probably not lug around a ballista. maybe 1-3 khazad guard, 4-6 iron guard. I know that cuts down on troop diversity but I think that is the point of battle companies, to have a limited variety of troops and to use those troops successfully.
@Cyndra the grey I think your BC looks good, though I am not that familiar with dunland. Though I would perhaps remove the Dunlending Warrior with hand weapon and shield and replace him with a Wild Man with hand weapon. I know it doesnt equal 61 points, but it is 59 and since Dunlending Warriors are our better troops I think you should start out with less of them. More chance to promote that way.

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Fair enough but i was trying to use what was in the blister packs. It just means you have to buy another pack of wild men, but then i suppose you are probably going to need them. Over all i think it is a good idea so i will edit the starting force.

Cyndra the Grey

thanks for feed-back. I understand your point for Ballista and could be vault wardens too, but why not the drummer team, shield bearer, bat swarms, wargs, ww chieftain, and troll. they can still be sent as reinforcements easily and the company would still be small following the spirit of the battle companies - BTW that's why I am proposing a points limit of 200 points. points limit will make the player think of his choices, specially that rolling on the Fame table is optional as you notice and the table provides a cheaper alternative with every expensive one. for instance instead of sending a Troll reinforcement a shaman could be sent.

in case of Ballista and Vault Wardens, we can replace it with more Khazad/Iron guards, for instance on "1-2" 2xKhazad/Iron Guard, on "3-4" 3xKhazad/Iron Guard.

@Cyndra the Grey
copmany looks good. I would have thought 6 wild men+5 wildmen(2H), but then again it deprives them from archery option. though I may agree with Noddwyr on replacing the Dunland warrior with some wildmen if possible. I am not familiar with dunland either, so I guess you know better.

starting at 60 points as most companies is the right choice which IMHO should be the case for all companies for a balanced game - no exceptions. in Noddwyr experience a 43 Elf copmany got a balanced game against a 60 points Easterlings, ok by me though I think it may need more testing as it could be player experience/skill difference.

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Cheers. At the moment im going to save up for the models and give it a play testing. But any one else who wants to can give it a go to.

I don't think you could get a shaman in BC because they are heroes. But the link you posted says they can have shamanic powers. Would you get a hero with powers?

As you mentioned the BC rules allow a Hero and Shaman only through experience (Advance Tables).

I was proposing another route to get a minor Hero such as a Shaman through reinforcements sent from a patron. It will not be easy to get it though as you have to roll two consecutive 6s to get it. and also in general you have to keep your BC within the proposed points limit of 200pts, so you need to keep big units at a minimum not to get low in numbers.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I agree with the dwarves, I don't know why i left out the shield bearer, I must have overlooked it. What you wrote above sounds good.

As for the goblins, I would concede that bat swarms, wargs and shaman could be used as reinforcements, though IMHO the troll, drum and the ww chieftan are too high on point value I think to be included in BC. I mean they are almost the same points values as some of the major heros

ww chieftan =75
troll = 80
goblin drum =100
at 80 points thats like including gildor as a reinforcement for elves, and at 100 points the drum is almost fellowship boromirs points and more than legolas and gimli. I know these are named, but great eagles cost 90 points and i wouldnt include them in a BC. So i guess basically my point is, I think that though I like your idea of adding variety the high point (50+) models should not be included in BC.

I would suggest:

1 to 2- prowler
3 to 4-wild warg
5- bat swarm
6 - shaman

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yes you can have Gildor as reinforcement for only 8 influence points, well almost!!
And it's according to the updated rules by Adam Troke, page 11 in the PDF I added recently. he even have a shooting value, and can gain terror later on from advancing tables.

so why not adding a troll if we give the player something to think about and decide on the consequences that will form his strategy.

I think that was an initiative of adding variety to BC. I think it's a great initiative and I am trying to expand on the idea. I do think it's still needs to be adjusted and play tested. but don't you think it's worth it?

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I think that having a cave troll in BC is a great idea but I think you should make them like 'Wandering Elf' where you have to pay influence points. I would suggest 7 IP and maybe a 'special rule' (Primal Instincts) where you roll a D6 and on the roll of a six it gains +1 attack but on the roll of a 1 the Troll eats D6 goblins. Therefore it makes the Moria player decide whether or not a troll is worth it.

EDIT:

Designers Note: Hill troll's may only be purchased by Battle Companies with an Evil allegiance

Hill Troll: Cost: 7 influence points.

Stats:(see Cave Troll entry)

Special rule:
Primal Insticts: Before every battle roll a D6 and consult the table below:

1-The Troll's instincts tell it to fed. D6 warriors are eaten by the troll or you can choose to let the Troll flee (If the Troll flees then it will no longer fight as part of your force).
2-5-The Troll's instincts tell it to stay. It will fight in the next battle as normal.
6-The troll goes into a berserk primal rampage. The troll gains +1 attack and passes all courage tests it needs to take.

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Backlog Reduction Oath Participant - 6/53

I agree with dragon of moria, if you want to include a cave troll then rolling for it with 3 influence points doesn't seem the way to go. You could do it the way dragon proposes it or have a Special Influence Roll table. So you could have:

#Influence table: (D6)
1- none
2- orc sh
3- orc s
4- orc b
5- choose one of the above
6- Choose one of the above, or roll on Fame table

#Fame table:
1 to 2- prowler
3 to 4-wild warg
5- bat swarm
6 - shaman

Special table: ( Need to use 7 influence points to roll on this)
1- no effect
2 - ww chieftan
3 to 4 - troll
5 - goblin drum
6 - choose one

This way there is a higher risk involved in getting them, and it is still random. But I also quite like Dragon of morias approach to it, i was just trying to offer an alternative, since I do agree that its a great initiative to add more variety, i just think that the normal influence tables aren't the way to add high point creatures.

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Thanks for the great ideas guys. Actually I was thinking of an approach right between your two ideas. my main idea was to add special reinforcement for each race instead of common reinforcements for all races as Troke suggested. So I'd like to take the best of your two ideas. Following Troke's ideas the big units should cost more as The_Dragon_of_Moria suggested, while including them in the reinforcement table as Noddwyr suggested.

But instead of adding more tables to the already existsing ones, I suggest to stick to the normal extention of the Influence table but as follows:

Moria:

#Influence table: (D6)
1- none
2- orc sh
3- orc s
4- orc b
5- Choose one of the above
6- Choose one of the above, or pay 3IP more to roll on Fame table

#Fame table:
1-2 Warg chieftain/Shaman/Wild warg/2x Prowler (2H)
3-4 Cave troll (Hammer)/Giant Spider/2x Prowler (sh)
5-6 Drummers Team/Bat Swarm/2x Prowler (b)


so now rolling on the second list will cost 6IPs. I think 3IPs more is the average cost between the three possibilities in the Fame table.
Special rule may add flavor but I think we better stick to normal units to keep the changes and the risks of unbalancing the game to a minimum, at least for the moment.

let me know what you think so far and I'm open to all ideas and hope more people would enrich this initiative with their comments/ideas as well. everybody feel free to dive in.

I would like to open discussion on two more suggestions:

1) I already suggested a points limit of 200points per BC. besides the extra IPs to use the Fame Table, this way I guess will allow players to adopt different strategies, while adding more pressure on the player to choose wisely. let me know what you think and if we should change the limit, may be lower it to be 150pts or increase it to 250...??

2) I like Troke's way in giving space for promoting new reinforcements too, as in the case of Gildor he adds it as reinforcement but withouts some of his special rules that he can acquire later on, such as Gildor's Terror rule. So for big units and following this idea we can say that the troll status added as reinfircement will be -1S, -1D, -1F.....(just some examples). This will give him room for more experience later on and give opponent chance to absorbe the sudden change and soften down the resulting difference in power change between opponents. Do you think this could be a good idea or will it be unnecessary complication.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

I have an excel file that is used for building Battle Companies quickly and easily if anyone is interested. It was originally built for a TLA article and has seen many updates recently due to me playign Battle Companies with my three sons.

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Still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.

great, please upload it on the net and send me the link to post it.

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OFTENTIME,THE SHADOWS SERVE NOT ONLY TO CONCEAL THOSE WHO WISH TO DO EVIL,BUT ALSO PROTECT THOSE WHO SEEK TO DO GOOD

It should be found here.

I have also included an old txt file that explains how to use the sheet, but it should be pretty self explanatory. It is still a work in progress and so the buttons to kill off members of your company don't work at the moment. One day they will.

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Still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.