So....

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:58 am

...If WOTR is going Specialist Games as rumoured - do you think who ever steers that things will let us fans have some more input into the core rules? :twisted:

It has worked exceedingly well for other games like BFG and Epic Armageddon.

Cheers

ForgottenLore · **Joined:** Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:47 pm **Posts:** 491

Interesting thought. It is a possibility.

Though I have never known HOW fans were supposedly providing input into the specialist games. They don't do a very good job of explaining that.

Constantine · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:28 am

How did you come about that rumor?

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:19 am

FL - They have a point person @ GW who is in contact with someone/small set of people 'in the community' (you'll find them on one of the bigger forums eg TacComms for Epic) who run discussion threads and maintain community docs, which the point-person then translates into official docs on their website, with some review by those @ GW.

Constantine - Warseer.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:24 pm

What does it mean if they change in into a specialist game?

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:30 pm

They basically divide their lineup into 'Main games' and 'other games'. The 'other games' still get support via their website and have some associated stuff for them but not to the degree of the three main games, which will always have books in print etc.

As an aside, since GW often outsource a lot of the list review AND it always seems to happen to their better designed game-systems, many of us prefer Specialist Games. WOTR is the first non-Specialist GW game I played seriously so I hope the rumour is true

Telchar · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:33 pm

NotLegolasJustTipsy wrote:

What does it mean if they change in into a specialist game?

It means it will never ever again have any support whatsoever...

smaul · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:39 pm

I hope it doesn't become a specialist game. I tried epic space marine and the fighting over what a proper "army list" is, is very confusing and annoying.

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:52 pm

I guess if you game in a cave with no internet and your friends have no printers, that is true. :-D

Personally, I am looking forward to the day I can tell new players they just need to download the relevant pdfs and that the lists are now a community document and actually have been playtested. Perhaps you view the design team as always your friends (well they did design some pretty good games - WOTR, EA, BFG, BB et al) rather than me who is always nervous when I remember they are in charge of steering the rules. These are, afterall, the people who wrote the rules for the Mordor and Moria lists and some of those Epics in particular...

Smaul, Epic Space Marine is really more a fan maintained project than a supported game like Epic Armageddon (the more recent version) is. There is no need to 'fight' over Epic Armageddon, everyone can just agree to use the GW lists.

It may be though that this happy state does not eventuate and that the rumour poster conflated "no new stuff coming out" with "shift to Specialist Games."

smaul · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:36 pm

I'm just not a "house rules" guy Xelee

I see more arguing and fighting over it then it is worth, on forums, just because everyone has their own opinion.

I am glad for you that you are excited, but I am not, again, epic space marine has about 3-5 lists just for the tyranids that guys cant seem to agree on. Not to mention they have been "testing" them for years to see how they work and if they are "balanced". I have EA and unless you play orks, marines or eldar, your army list choices are pretty limited. If you want Tau, Nids, Necrons etc. etc...you have to use a fan based list. (if there is even one)

I like WOTR as is, even in its imperfection, and honestly Ive never seen one game that people are all happy with when it comes to rules/points lists. I am sad that it will be thrown to the masses to work it out if this is true.

Now, I do hope you are right, and that WOTR will be supported "officially", I don't mind printing lists etc.. I just don't want it to end up with 3-5 different lists that people argue is "right" when most of it really is just opinion, (like the recent foot knights of Dol Amroth post) some don't think certain stats are "worth" the extra points, and some due.

big mess in my opinion.

NotLegolasJustTipsy · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:48 pm

Sorry to ask again, but can you explain again what it will mean to me as a consumer if WOTR becomes a "Specialist game"

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:01 pm

Smaul, I'm a little bit confused about what houserules have to do with any of this? Or arguing for that matter?

There is one set of Epic Armageddon Rules on the GW website, with one set of lists. GW does not support older versions of the game (Space Marine is AFAIK the first?) though there are multiple versions out there on the net, if you choose. However, that is the same for anything. For a GW type example, it is the same as playing by the official WH40K rules or instead using one of the fan rules mods out there. It is my understanding that despite the existence of alternative rules, the rules published and supported by GW are considered the official WH40k rules?

I know you feel a bit strongly about the houserules thing but no one is going to go and make your group use them and it really has nothing to do with Specialist Games.

When I want to play BFG, I go to the GW website and get the rules. When I want to play Epic Armageddon, I go to the GW website and get the rules. I hope that is how WOTR ends up too but it may be that they keep the book in print but sold only direct (or Forgeworld?), since it is just the one product code. Three with the movement trays.

Notlegolasjusttipsy, I suppose it depends on your individual purchasing practices? There is very little that is specifically WOTR atm (see the above answer to Smaul). So, happy thoughts of a better tested official edition aside (even if rules design and playtesting is just opinion), it may just mean that you get some of the same stuff in different places and probably most of it in the same place - because SBG is going to get more promoted, not less.

wallacer · **Joined:** Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:18 am **Posts:** 4

I wonder what it means as far as miniatures go?
Will Forge World end up providing more miniature support?

The rules i'm not overly concerned about. The Epic rules seem fine, so going Specialist in that sense is no big deal, at least not for me. It's the miniatures situation that worries me.

smaul · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:05 pm

Xelee, player created army point lists are house rules, that is what Im referring.

Tzeentchling9 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 17

My only problem with getting moved to specialist games(I don't really play LotR, just WotR) is some GWs don't allow specialist games to be played on their tables. Not a whole lot of good Indies around here.

Likely lack of support is annoying too, but not news. :roll:

smaul · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:06 pm

Tzeentchlin9, we are the same there, but I thought I read that they would be allowed to be played at stores, all speculation at this point anyway I suppose.

Xelee · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:52 pm

smaul wrote:

Xelee, player created army point lists are house rules, that is what Im referring.

Yes Smaul - I get that bit. But it is nothing to do with Specialist games in particular - They exist for all games. In fact, they exist for WOTR right now. Your confusion and group arguments over which list to uses seems, from how you describe it, to relate to using something that isn't actually a Specialist Game. If you were using the Specialist Game version of Epic (Armageddon), then there would be no issue - fan lists are out there but there are 'official' rules on the GW website.

You guys are all so "glass half empty"

What about more opportunities for GW to get feedback based on people's collective and extensive playing experience? I love the game but there ARE areas that could be easily improved without changing the game too much.

smaul · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:23 pm

I dont think you really read my posts

there are no official lists for epic nids, tau, necrons etc.... which is what I hope doesnt happen for WOTR (i.e. ZERO SUPPORT)

as I posted earlier I know there are official lists for EA, for a few armies, the other armies never got updated from older versions of epic to be official, only fan lists (which there are numerous ones out there for each faction).

I know you are aware that I (and the guys I play with) think the game is fine as is (opinion) and that is my point, everyone has an opinion and with if GW doesnt give an "official" list on WOTR it will be annoying as everyone tries to prove their list is better (like they already do on the forums)

we can just agree to disagree, Im fine with that. Maybe I dont explain it as well in typed communication as I could in person. Im glad you are half full in your optimism and I truly hope it does work out for the better. WOTR is after all my favorite game, time will tell I guess.

Xelee · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:49 pm

Smaul, I do read you posts - when someone disagrees with you it does seem an easy charge to go for that they "just haven't read the post" - it is just that the EA situation (since you are now not talking about Space Marine at all? It seemed to be both before.) isn't materially any different than the likes of WH40K. There are a lot of official lists and a lot of unofficial lists. GW does give an official set of lists for Epic Armageddon (but not Space Marine, different game). That is the situation I hope for with WOTR..... where GW will also give an official set of lists. The set of Official lists for EA seems to be those that were in the originally published set (this is definitely the case for BFG too, not so familiar with the other games) so I also trust that this would be the case for WOTR too. There are WOTR lists now that I think GW should definitely do that aren't done - such is the way for every game. However, GW still produce official WOTR lists, just not all that I'd want!

I am not trying to persuade you personally of anything, but I am actually quite keen on this development - hence the OP. So of course I will comment on factual matters that are incorrect, since it leads to issues being conflated that do not need to be so, when related to it.

smaul · **Posted:** Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:06 pm

nothing I have said has been incorrect, but if you feel the need to counter my view point because you dont find it factual, I guess that is your option. I think it is just that you disagree and like to have the last word personally.

So....

Who is online