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 Post subject: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:39 pm 
Elven Warrior
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Okay, i've just had a look at my old isengard army and saw how terrible i painted them, but that's not the point, has any one some expirience with isengard, and can someone give me some tips playing them, i think Thydran wolfsbane is a very nice hero, as he can lead several formations of dundelings, and i like the crossbows, but i don't know much about them

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:46 pm 
Elven Elder
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Though I don't play the list (as I hate everything in it except the Dunledings and Warg Riders) I know that crossbows are awesomely powerful (too good actually) Thrydan is also amazing. He's one of the most often allied epics because he's basicallly a captain (and costs the same as) with Epic Strike) he is seriosly overpowered.

Grima is dreadful unless allied into Angmar, Saruman is good, so are Feral Uruk-hai, Troll Captains, Orcs witgh 2-handers, Uruk-hai pike and shields. As are the ridiculously cheap Ruffians. Normal trolls, ballistas and bezerkers aren't too good.

That's all I can rember about Isengard.

Hope it Helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:52 pm 
Elven Warrior
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thanks gothmog, is lurtz strong? and i hate all orcs except the warg riders so i maybe will use uruk scouts and let them represent'orc-men' as i just read about them and they seem cool

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:59 pm 
Elven Elder
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Lurtz is a decent hero I think. I rember one Lurtz killing my Mordor Troll Chieftain and Gothmog in the same battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:00 pm 
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In my opinion, Lurtz is too expensive (compare him to Boromir). At 1000pts, Saruman and Thrydan should be good for Heroes.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:02 pm 
Elven Elder
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Lurtzis ghood if your enemy uses monsters though.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Yes and on a test me and my brother did if you combine his epic actions he can be very good... 8)
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:40 pm 
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I definitely rate him - General Elessar is right though, lists are about choices and I see him as an either/or for 1000pts. At 1500, I'd say him, Thrydan (or the 'I can't believe its not Thrydan' one Isengard opponent fields!) and Saruman. If you do want him, he combos well with a Darkness caster - then his shot ability is deadly combined with black dart.

As to the list as a whole, if Saruman is in there along with some crossbow you will find these two can do a LOT of harm just on their own. You also have access to some pretty killy melee troops. These are not Uruks, they are the likes of Feral Uruks and Orcs w 2HW. They are lethal with Dark Fury on them. Melee Uruk Hai are best with shields doing the job of being the part of the army that is hard to kill and stops the parts that do damage being flanked or charged when you don't want them to be.

In terms of how to use units together: Obviously Crossbow will work best shooting from a terrain piece but you can actually get good mileage even with them in the open but two melee units forward and to either flank like this: -_- The gap needs to be narrow enough to prevent the shooting unit from being charged from the front. That kind of formation can keep Saruman and shooters alive for a long time and Shatter Shields + Epic Ruination on other spells actually does a lot of damage combined with the shooting. Likewise, instead of screening shooters, Uruks with Shields could be teaming up with the killy units to try and pin target units in place. Some of the Isengard units do a lot of damage very quickly in melee.

Isengard is a pretty mean list really.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:04 pm 
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I'd go with a fairly standard Crossbow + Saruman combo. Saruman shatters shields and the crossbows whittle down numbers like you wouldn't believe.

When I play Isenguard (which is rarely) for 1000 point games, I tend to use 2 core formations of crossbows (one standard w/ saruman the other Vrashu's Talons)
With a nice number of shielded units and 1-2 pikes for the flanks (cavalry funnelled into the middle for easy shooting)
Take heroes like Thryden with a company of beserkers as the "hitting force" of the unit, maybe a ballista or two.

I tend to find that the Beserkers and Ballistae act as a panic button, meaning the crossbows tend to be ignored, well, until the first 1-2 rounds of shooting are over and Gondor wonders where 3 formations of WOMT have vanished to.

What you could really do with is something with Ambush, this will allow you to really exploit the durability of Uruk-hai, they'll be so tied up in combat they won't be able to deal with a flanking force.

In a pinch Druzhuug works, he can summon some spiders or wargs which can really screw up an enemies charge, and for 100 points he is a steal.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Naresh wrote:
When I play Isenguard ...


Heh well more like when you play *against* Isengard, usually me.

But in short I agree with the other posts here. I have played Isengard in WotR for 9 months now ina variety of configurations, and combinations well except any heavy use of scouts/ferals/ruffians.

In answer to the original question, the best method is to come up with a core concept or idea around which to base your list, this should be based on your style, and what you find fun/interesting and so suits your general style of play. If you like the sight of monsters/heavy units then you would need to take 2-3 trolls and/or Beserkers (or more) supported by common units like warbands. if you like artillery, don't take one ballistae but 2-3.

Specific units:
Saruman is very useful for his effective spells, Inspiring leader/high courage, in small armies he is a one man artillery unit, in larger armies he can be protected better and buff his formations or debuff enemies and then brought to bear at key points. He is of course like any spellcaster vulnerable to Heroic Duels.

Thryden is cheap and never leave home without him.

Grima - urg. sometimes for fun, but is pricy points wise for what he does

Lurtz - also pricy. Better for larger armies and his hero or monster hero killing ability with assassins shot.

Uruks with shields - High defence good fight. Often the core of the army. Place Saruman in here and you have a solid base to fling spells from and he can ressurect Uruks using belssing of the valar which can depress your opponent...

Uruk Phalanx - Just not as useful as shield uruks. Take some, but unless its Rohan you're fighting don't take too many as shield Uruks in the end are better than phalanxes in my opinion

Uruk Crossbows. (and Vrasku's talons) deadly. expensive in ££, but effective in combat and shooting. take heroes with them for Heroic Shot so you can move, at the double and still shoot at key stages in the battle. As i don't need many phalanxes and ended up with many broken pikes.. I convert these hapless uruks to crossbowmen by removing the remains of the pike and cutting their hands to give them metal crossbows. Yay, those pikemen are now far more lethal..

Sappers - Fun! Dont rush to use them in combat - keep them back, then unleash them to go boom! On Sunday last a sapper unit blew up, detonating another sapper unit, combined taking out a Stone Giant and inflicting 13 wounds on a Dragon.... if used right they are deadly (they took out a ballista of mine too but it was worth it)

Beserkers - Useful again they are high targets often so screen them with a warband to start with until they can start charging, or place cheapo Thryden in with them to give them At the Double! speed...

Ballistae - like any artillery in the game useful especially against defending units or high defence units especially.

Warg riders - Not strong, but fairly cheap, send them deep...

Trolls - Heavy shock units... but take more than one and keep them together, they also atract attention from enemy archers, and Hard to kill! in WotR means the opposite sometimes.

You can't really do everything, i mean you could take a bit of everything a few warbands, a sapper, a ballista, a troll, some magic, but its uninspired and all those elements are good but dont necessarily mean yu hit as hard as you could. Take units for a reason to support or synchronise with others. The battlehosts provide some examples of thematically constructed lists. Use them or take inspiration and build an army around that central idea allowing for some flexibility. For example:

Basic Army: Saruman Thryden, and many uruk warbands/phalanxes. Sheer numbers of uruks will wear enemies firepower and if you keep relentlessly closing you'll get to his archer/specialised units in time. Add Trolls or archer/crossbows for some flexibility.

Firepower: Lots of ballistae and crossbows. long range damage. make him come to you, and hold him off with uruk warbands, maybe add cavalry if needed to dig out his deep units.
The Siege Lords Battlehost for example allows lots of Rare ballistae, sappers and beserkers (as Battlehosts are exempt from Decree of Rarity)

Destruction: Saruman with Kardush and Druzhag for up to 7 spells of ruin a turn... take heavy units of Uruks, maybe bolster a large formation of 6 with Isengard Steel or Cursed Armour of Udun fate for 6(8) defence. add flexibility again with a mix of cavalry, trolls, archers, beserkers etc. get in close and unleash up to 3 tremors against multiple units. (I believe as a spell that is not targetted at a specific formation but radiates from the caster and affects even friendly formations (apart from the caster), it cannot be countered by Will of Iron - but that is another debate in itself)

And many more, such as armies with many many warg riders or instead relying on Orcs like mordor lists. The imagination is the limit and Isengard gives many options and combinations.

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Last edited by daersalon on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Sappers need to be protected until the right point.

Until they explode they are basically weak uruks (no shields, pikes etc) which are a liability to your army.

1. You put them out first, they get shot down and you lose some of your army.
2. Put them behind a buffer screen, then when they do explode, they are in the thick of combat and you end up losing even more men potentially (unless you lose them on the flanks)

Also, formation sizing for them, too big and they won't die at the right time
Too small and they'll go off too early.

Using sappers is all about field control, if you can control where they will explode, then the panic button they set off works. Try Strength from corruption if you need them to explode at a certain point.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:10 pm 
Elven Elder
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Formation sizing? You can only have one company of them in a formation!

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:14 pm 
Elven Warrior
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okay, my ideas were:
vrasku's tallons
some other xbows
uruk hai berserkers with amdur(an other model, renamed to Karvag, an uruk hai who has enormous strenght and leads elite units) with epic rampage, that combination can kill whole formations in one turn, and maybe give him the carn dum crown, or how it is called, since he has resilience 3 and can use so extra epic rampages.
some feral uruk hai in ambush
saruman
a pike unit to counter cavalry
Thydran leading some dundelings with 2 handed weapons
some wargs
a balista deployed in a defensable structure
that goblin wizard calling wargs(more thematic as bats or spiders) and helping saruman with magic
anyone some tips for this list, and wich battlehosts and legendary formations are good

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Last edited by mastermanje on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:17 pm 
Elven Elder
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your beserkers would be a massive arrow magnet - onme powerful but vulnerable single comapny formation wioth a powerful hero given a fate to regain might. I doubt proper screening could keep them alive for long.

And about Balistas. they are worse than corossbows, awise opponent would ingnore them and take out crossbows instead IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Sappers indeed need protecting, hence my point about keeping them back, though it wasnt't explicit. they are single company disposable kamikaze units. They need some care but can be devastating. I have taken them 3 times and each time the boom has been more than satisfactory. I accept the risk the enemy may boom them behind my lines...

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:23 pm 
Elven Elder
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My point is that you appear to be under delusion that you could have them in larger formations, that's all. To me they seem like fun to use but not always the best choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Ballistae are hit and miss (ahaha) .. seriously any artillery has its uses. One isnt so good but start taking two together and you have a non magic unit that damage high defence units, from long range. It's a long term continuing attack across the whole board. for example I have faced Gondor trebuchets often, I usually can't get to them till turn 4 or 5 but in that time its hit after hit against my core units. An army facing isengard has the same issues, relentless strikes from artillery which hits almost anything but the highest defences on rolls of 3, at the very least their manouevring is slightly more circumspect to avoid its incredible range.

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Last edited by daersalon on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:25 pm 
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GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
My point is that you appear to be under delusion that you could have them in larger formations, that's all. To me they seem like fun to use but not always the best choice.


That was Naresh not me :)

And yes as i posted originally above.. sappers = fun... tricky to use but booms are fun

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Last edited by daersalon on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:26 pm 
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sorry there.

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 Post subject: Re: Isengard
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Mastemanje, A list after my own heart, ballistae and crossbows, but the point Gothmog makes about the beserkers being an arrow magnet is true. You could still take Amdur, but only epic move him into the Beserkers when they get close to the enemy and ready to charge. I would risk Thryden in a beserker unit from the start, as he is but 50 points, but no-one more costly.

You would have to use the crossbowmen as combo archers/infantry, i.e shooting when they can and closing to attack enemy infantry. i.e. you dont keep them back like you often find with arcery units, but use them aggresively and use might to be able to shoot a volley before you get charged

The Dunlendings and Beserkers and possibly Ferals closer together to make a nice hardcore wing of 2-handed weapon wielders.

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