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Captains, are they useful?
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Author:  dolpin tamroth [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Captains, are they useful?
I open a thread to throw a question, in your experience are the captains useful ? I extend to you the reasons for and against:

For:

* Increase the Courage attribute of the formation.
* They have Might to be able to do heroic actions or use the rule at the Double !
* They obtain extra dice in the attack by raising the figth value.

Against:

* In an heroic duel with a hero who has a high fight value (either naturally or through an epic strike), causes a destruction of their own formation that could not be done if there aren't captains in it.
* The value in points (50) is very high if compared to what they bring. You can save this points and invest them in other epic hero.
* If the formation has an epic hero, the Captain values are not used, being only useful as Might (50 points by two Might points, make it sense?).

Comments ???

Regards

Dolpin
Author:  Hilbert [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Might is useful but if you take a captain is betetr not to palce him into the same formation as an epic hero...
I consider using them to help other formations... 8)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Most of the time it is propbably best not to use one especially if there's another hero. Hoever, about paying 50pts for just 2 might points - GW considers a might point to be worth 25pts each anyway, the rest of the stuff (fight value, courage, ATD) is considered to be free.
Author:  General Elessar [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Captains aren't terrible, it's just that the alternative, an Epic Hero, is so much better.
Author:  Hashut's Blessing [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
I prefer the non-captain heroes (dragon knights/shielbearers as an example) and epic heroes - you get a lot more value from them.
Author:  Hilbert [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
I agree with that one... 8)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Captains are useful for archers/crossbowmen though, that we you don't have to commit an epic hero, and you can use their might.
Author:  dolpin tamroth [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
Captains are useful for archers/crossbowmen though, that we you don't have to commit an epic hero, and you can use their might.


If I understood properly the main reason is that in an archers/crossbowmen formation you are not going to fight directly with your opponent (so you avoid the risk of a duel), is this right?
Author:  Xelee [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
The main reason is for the heroic shoot - you can double (or even heroic move) then get to shoot. This is very potent for crossbows in particular, since it not only does a lot of damage but gets you around the fact they cannot move and shoot at all otherwise.

I don't personally find it that worthwhile with bow though and to be honest I see it being so situational that I'd probably use and Epic to do that instead.

As regards Captains/heroes making a formation vulnerable via duels - my rule of thumb is that this isn't something worth worrying about for infantry but it totally puts me off using them in Cav (that and the rules that make Epics then be in the second coy) where a duel can plausibly turn a combat around, since it occurs first.
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
There are times when leaving any Hero out of a formation is the better option because it forces the combat. As Xelee noted above, Cav are a great example of this. Yes you sometimes want a Hero in there to be able to ATD, but one of the greatest advantages of Cav is to be able to strike damage to Infantry forces before then can roll retaliation. If a Duel can take place and knock out a company or two of your Cav then you lost some advantage.
Author:  daersalon [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
dolpin tamroth wrote:
If I understood properly the main reason is that in an archers/crossbowmen formation you are not going to fight directly with your opponent (so you avoid the risk of a duel), is this right?


Isengard Uruk Hai: Can have shields, Crossbows or Pikes (phalanx). Otherwise they are the same, besides Wargear. Taking Crossbowmen instead of shields means they don't have the shieldwall, but a long range attack at strength 3 or 4 is good compensation. Yes they are meant to be ranged units, but also you mustn't be afraid to commit them to fight. Without a hero (capt/epic)they can't do this anywhere near so effectively. And putting an epic in this unit seems a waste, you may as well take Vrasku's Talons.

Archers I agree are more squishy, and I think don't need a captain so much, they fight less, so get disordered less, are unlikely to At the Double! much and can move and shoot at half speed to get better arcs of fire or range. You are better with 1-2 more companies of archers than a captain with them. (in general)

So non-epic Captains:
uruk crossbows = yes
archers (most factions) = no
Author:  mastermanje [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
1.i would place the betrayer inside an archery formation if you are evil, because:
1: re-roll
2:black dart for incoming heroes with higher fight than him
3:only one time heroic shoot, but with wings of terror you can let them still walk a great distance
4:as the dismay spells can lower the courage of the enemy, you can nullify it so that they aren't able to pass the terror test to charge

2.take saruman, because:
1:shatter shields
2:Voice of Saruman
3:anyone coming to close gets an tremor attack
Author:  Beowulf03809 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
I like to have a Captain in my WE archer formations if possible. Rushing forward, ATD, to the flank of an enemy and calling an Heroic Shot so they get 20-40 shots point blank into their flank or rear is usually worth the points. And an Elf Captain has a high enough Fight that he can stand up in a Duel against any non ES Hero and even have a reasonable chance of not loosing too bad against ES. And if there happens to be an Epic in there as well (Thranduil or Legolas for example) then the generic Captian can burn his Might on the Heroic Shots or Heroic Combats and let the Epic save his Might for things more Epic.
Author:  Xelee [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Hi mastermanje, there is no question the Betrayer is good in that role. He really boosts archery and Haradrim in particular, which fits.

Saruman is good to lead crossbow except that in practice it is generally better that Epic heroes not be tied down dedicated to one unit at all. He costs a lot of points and can absolutely make that back but needs to be light-footed to do so and it may be that he is not there for the Crossbow that turn. With Crossbow, you pretty much know you will want that double-move Heroic Shoot at least once so they might as well get their own Captain to call it So Saruman can focus on other more specialist things.... like heroic moving Sappers into the middle of the enemy army! :)
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
I've just remembered another use for Captains, for Ghosts and Ghostly Riders as the can't have Epic Heroes, so this is the only way they get might abnd ATD.
Author:  Naresh [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Xelee wrote:
Hi mastermanje, there is no question the Betrayer is good in that role. He really boosts archery and Haradrim in particular, which fits.

Saruman is good to lead crossbow except that in practice it is generally better that Epic heroes not be tied down dedicated to one unit at all. He costs a lot of points and can absolutely make that back but needs to be light-footed to do so and it may be that he is not there for the Crossbow that turn. With Crossbow, you pretty much know you will want that double-move Heroic Shoot at least once so they might as well get their own Captain to call it So Saruman can focus on other more specialist things.... like heroic moving Sappers into the middle of the enemy army! :)



Unfortunately, you can only move Heroes out of a formation at the start of that formation's move...

Which means unless somehow that single company survives, Saruman explodes as well, and you lose 240 points of prime caster steak...
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
He is an overlord though remember, he can give them a heroic move without entering their formation.
Author:  daersalon [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
GothmogtheWerewolf wrote:
He is an overlord though remember, he can give them a heroic move without entering their formation.


True and useful, but rare in practice as Saruman has so many things to use that Might on. :( *sniff* some one give an old poor Wizard some more Might points pleeease.... *sniff*
Author:  GothmogtheWerewolf [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Is Saruman not Touched by Destiny then?
Author:  daersalon [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Captains, are they useful?
Yes. I field Saruman regularly, but TBD only allows epic ruin, epic challenge or epic chanelling, of course... Even so I find his Might points still used in attack or defence to boost spell results or Wills of Iron and never hardly any spare to use to Overlord friendly formations. Overlord is I admit a very nice option, but I have rarely used the ability or found need to, or at least at a point the poor chap still HAD Might points.... hehe. So. *begging bowl out and zaps all the other similarly begging Heroes in standing behind him.... While Aragorn and Boromir Smugly watch with their Might stores in their pockets*
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