I wish to rant here...

I think this rule completely destroys the game. Let me give my reasons.

1. You cannot decline a duel
2. Many gamers use higher level characters which give rediculous bonuses, such as Epic Fight, whch increases their level to 10. Taken against a typical leader (fight 4 or 5) that is +4 or 5 hits, and an almost impossibility of losing a fight.
3. My BIG gripe is the casualties caused afterwards. A duel is an easy way to wipe out a unit before the actual battle. For each score above the opponent's you roll a D6. This will result in a 50% chance of killing D3 troops.

Having a captain in a unit does give some benefit, but this is completely offset by the fact that he can be dueled. This duel will not only surely kill him, but a big chunk of his as well, and all this before melee even begins.

This is cheese that smells quite bad and I really think it needs to be fixed. Here are my thoughts:

1. To allow the target to decline --
Solution 1 - Allow the target of a duel to decline. The unit they are with must make a courage test or it will fight back at minus half dice.
Solution 2 - Allow the target to decline. The unit must make a courage test or it must retreat (fear grips the troops and they immediately turn to the rear--and are thus attacked in the rear).

2. Do not allow a target to decline --
Solution 1 - Fight as normal, but the duel damage chart is changed to read: 1 miss, 2 kill a single man, 3 kill D3 men, 4-5 wound on hero, 6 two wounds on hero.
Solution 2 - Fight as normal, but do not use the damage table. Instead, each die that would normally be rolled on the damage chart will instead be a bonus die that is rolled in the melee by the victor.
Solution 3 - Fight as normal, but do not use the damage table. Instead, each die that would normally be rolled on the damage chart will instead be a penalty that is subtracted from the total dice rolled by the losing side.

Any thoughts?

Brian

I've never considered duels to be game-breaking. There's sooooo much that people say IS broken, it makes me wonder what people thinks works! I'd agree that 'epic strike' works a little strangely. However, it adds to the strategy a player need to employ with regards might. Heroic duels are also a constant threat to powerful heroes like Ringwriaths (yeah, they have ES but only one Might) And I like the principle of heroes meeting across the battlefield to clash swords face-to-face. I would like to see it become more than a roll off. Of course, it may slow the game, but I'd like to pick a manner in which to fight, to maybe make three rolls; a defensive, offensive and killing strike perhaps, with each character able to affect each to a certain degree depending on their nature and the situation.
I do like the idea of having heroes flee from challenges. You'd choose between preserving the character, but leaving the unit to the mercy of a fired-up hero.

Really, all GW needs to do in a 2nd Edition of the game (if we ever get one) is rule that Epic Strike can't be used in Heroic Duels. 90% of problems solved.

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"What's so civil about war, anyway?"

Another way of looking at it perhaps is, realising the enemy hero is an epic, with epic strike, and perhaps looking tactically to "feed" him a "speed bump" unit. This way if he wants to call epic stike and duel, thats 2 might points gone, burned getting rid of a cheap unit.
Then try tactically to have a follow up unit to now take the fight to the depleted Epic Hero, chances are he may only have 1 might point left now...

I'm a fine one to talk , but rather than fix the game, think what tactics may work to deal with the "problem"
regards
Scott

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

Hi Killerkatanas,

My take on ES duels is that:
1. It does not cause enough extra damage to infantry to really be worth worrying about.
2. This damage has a reasonable chance of mattering if applied to a cavalry unit. So I take this into account.
3. The fact that it is in the game means you do have to think hard about what heroes to include, and how to use them. This cannot be ignored, since it is so prevalent.
4. We houseruled ES so that it only granted +2 in duels, which seems to have fixed the balance issues.
5. There are simple ways to help cope: avoid low fight heroes on cav units but not worry too much for inf; use offset lines of formations (eg -_-) to allow casters LOS while preventing charges on them; using Epic Sacrifice if you run into a formation with a dueler (and making sure that fight is your big cav strike); sometimes you can use priority to focus the battle away from the area where a hero is (sometimes). There will be other things for other lists.
6. There are actually a number of ways to get even bigger margins than ES generally creates (eg hero monsters dueling a terrified target, and so on) so I don't really regard the ability itself as a game-breaker.
7. It does exert a strong 'pull' on overall list design though. I regard it as a genuine distortion.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

A sense of proportion is required here,

That epic hero, that called Heroic Duel (1 Might) and then called Epic Strike (1 Might) has an advantage of +6, before the dice are rolled, over the lowly captain. The Epic Hero will very likely win by +6 and kill the captain with rolls on the Duel Table. But, as you said, he has a 50% chance of rolling 1D3 per point he wins by. What does that mean, on average?

1D3 has an average of 2 hits. 50% of 2 is 1 hit. He wins by +6 and, on average, inflicts 6 hits.

Not even a company of infantry. And that's for 2 Might spent.

I can live with that.

Stephen

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"We may have cared about many things in life, but what will we have in our last moments.”
St. Teresa of Avila

I agree with the others that duels aren't as bad as your experiences seem to indicate but that they do, in fact effect how one plays the game. I pretty much agree with Xelee's take on the subject (though he and I have argued about Epic Sacrifice in duels before).

If you still feel the need to house rule it, here are my comments on you solutions.

I don't feel the target should be able to outright decline the duel. While doing so makes a measure of sense fluff-wise it seems counter to the way the game was intended to be played. This isn't a formal challenge to one on one combat or anything, this is one hero hacking through the enemy to try and get to a valuable target.

Of your options for not being able to decline the duel, your second and thrid options don't actually include anyway to kill the hero without wiping out the whole formation. In those cases "fighting a duel" would just mean "making extra attacks against the grunts" which is clearly not what is meant to be going on. There definitely needs to be a chance of the loosing hero being killed.

So of you possible solutions I favor the one with an alternate duel table.

Another possibility that occurs to me is to allow the target a choice of whether to meet the challenger head on or try to avoid them by choosing which of 2 duel tables the duel will be resolved on.

If they try to avoid the challenger then the attacker must hack his way through more troops to reach his target, so
1=nothing, 2-3=1 dead grunt, 4-5=D3 dead grunts, 6=hit the hero

If they meet the challenger head on then
1-nothing, 2-3=1 dead grunt, 4-5=1 hit on the hero, 6=2 hits on the hero

part of the problem with modifications like these is that flavor-wise they assume the attacker is going to win. Hacking though a bunch of enemy troops on an evade doesn't make much sense if the defender happens to win.

Just some thoughts.

Pffff... have you actually read the rules? As above said duels kill barely a company tops.

Thing about Epic Strikes:
- No ES in a duel means that pretty much everything is useless once they haven't resisted Black Breath and they die to ordinary captains. Makes Mordor stronger.
- No ES in a duel also means that if Black Breath isn't present, then there's no way of killing Gil Galad & co. without wiping their formation - again stupid imo.
- ES works in a duel means that all heroes are pretty even... again stupid because they shouldn't be.

A solution I would see that might work would be to do the following:
- Player with lower fight rolls just 1d6
- Player with higher fight rolls xd6, where x is the number by which the Fight value is higher
- The highest dice of those is used. Might may be used to boost it as normal and above the result of a 6 to represent the greater struggle.
- ES doesn't work in Duels.

Pretty balanced imo - still a lowly captain can beat a mighty hero, but it's not likely, and it isn't as likely to even kill a captain in the first duel if the captain has Might.

_________________
Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

It CAN be a lot worse than that though. I've had Aragorn win by 8 and butcher my entire FORMATION, let alone company - though, to be fair, it was a cavalry formation.

_________________
"What's so civil about war, anyway?"

I may try something. When Might points are used, the amount is kept secret and both players reveal the M they wish to use simultaneously. It adds a bit of poker-ey-ness, even to a very, very small degree. How about if the actual heroic duel rolls are also kept secret, then both players write down the amount of might they wsh to use, even if it's nothing, and the total score is revealed simultaneously?

Oh, I like Blackmist's suggestion though, that sounds like it'd work.

That's exactly the way the rules tell you to do it in the LotR:SBG, except the minimum can always be 1 if you both declare that you wish to use Might. Isn't it the same in WotR already too?

_________________
Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

In WotR, if you are declaring heroic actions you both are just declaring the intention to spend might, not necessarily how much, and then you alternate declaring 1 action each until you want to stop. For spending might at other times I don't think the rules specifically say how to go about doing it.

Granted that my gripe is based on just playing a few games, since I am new to this. But I was not lucky in any of these games. I was playing Isengard and the formation with Saruman in it (a 4 company Uruk warband) was comfrnoted by:

Game 1:
A 3-company unit of Elf warriors with Gil-galad. Sauruman is a 4 fight and Gil-galad is a 10 (+6). I could not win even if I rolled a 6, but I rolled a 3 and he a 5, so he got 8 rolls on the chart and not only killed Saruman, but wiped out 14 others--and all this before the combat.

Game 2:
Was against Aragorn in a 4 company unit of Gondorian warriors. First he called a Heroic Charge and hit my unit (a 4 company Uruk pike unit with a captain), then a heroic duel, then epic strike. He went to a 10 fight versus my 5 and rolled enough to get 8 hits on the table. He wiped out my captain and killed 15 men! In the melee he made short work of the remaining troops, then charged into the next Uruk unit with Saruman. Once again, he called Heroic Duel, then epic strike. Saruman was killed along with 12 of his companion, and the rest of the unit was decimated later on.

Note that I only got 7 total hits through all of this and lost Saruman, two banners, a captain, and 64 troops.

So please forgive me if I don't see much of the logic here. This definitely seems broken!

With regards to my solution 2 ideas:
Solution 2 - Fight as normal, but do not use the damage table. Instead, each die that would normally be rolled on the damage chart will instead be a bonus die that is rolled in the melee by the victor.
Solution 3 - Fight as normal, but do not use the damage table. Instead, each die that would normally be rolled on the damage chart will instead be a penalty that is subtracted from the total dice rolled by the losing side.

I figure that for each of these the amount of damage done to the unit by the additional dice granted to the winner of the duel, or subtracted from the loser of the duel, would be enough that the hero will be eliminated anyway due to the killing of nearly all his troops. This will cause the unit to be eliminated when it is down to a single company that is below half strength.

However, I do like Blackmist's suggestion. It seems very balanced and at most will produce a result of 5 rolls on the table.

Brian

OK, I had originally just posted some questions asking for clarification because your description here isn't completely clear, but I am going to just make some assumptions and respond.

Based on how you phrased things and what you are talking about I am assuming that you mean he did all this in one turn and that when you say Heroic Charge, what you meant was Heroic Fight. Is that right? If not, let us know.

If those assumptions ARE correct, then he was not playing by the rules.

First, the easy ones. If he called Heroic Fight (which you called a Heroic Charge) first then no duels would be fought at all since after doing everything that heroic fight says to do the formations end up being separated. There are those that will argue that point if he re-charges and I agree the rules as intended probably meant something else but Heroic Fight, as written in the rulebook, stops a Heroic Duel if the Fight goes first. We have already had this discussion in your other thread though

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=20657

So we probably shouldn't get sidetracked again.

Second, a point in his favor, If all this was meant to be happening in one turn, Epic Strike lasts for the entire phase so there is no need to call it a second time.

Now for the big point. If all this was supposed to have been happening in one turn his second duel is illegal. Heroic Duel can ONLY BE CALLED AT THE START OF THE PHASE. Once a fight has actually begun you cannot call anymore duels that turn. That would have still blown apart your pikemen, but would have kept Sauruman safe for at least a turn.

Finally, some additional notes that people seem to get confused on a lot, although I don't know if you specifically are.

The extra attacks from Aragorns high fight value of 10 only apply to his company, not the formation as a whole. For some reason people frequently seem to think that every company fighting directly should get those +6 or 7 dice. They don't.

Also, Epic Strike is not called at the same time as a Heroic Fight or a Heroic Duel. Those two, like all Heroic actions, are called at the start of the phase, before any specific combats begin to be resolved. Epic Strike is called before the hero is due to fight. So he calls the Duel at the start of the phase and then when the duel is about to begin he has a chance to call the ES. It doesn't really make a difference in your example, but that is an important distinction in the timing of actions in general and it is one that seems to confound many people. Once you understand that distinction most of the problems people have with the timing of various abilities go away.

Again, this commentary is based on some assumptions, if those aren't right let me know so I can try and be more helpful.

And how the heck is he managing to repeatedly off 14-15 guys with 8 rolls on the duel table? That is almost double the statistical average.

Or: "Ah, yes, mere cavalry — poor beggars…" Plautus

I like the extra dice and pick best method as an alternative houseule to sort out ES.

And Killerkatanas, one of the keys to doing well with Isengard will be to learn to set your line so that the beige wizard retains spell LOS but cannot be charged and duelled that turn.

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http://www.roughwotr.blogspot.com

Yeah I know about Heroic Actions, but I was referring only to Might in combat. Like in SBG when 2 heroes fight each other, both declare Might, then both players secretly select how much Might they use from 1+.


Fair thing - he cost 300 and he killed almost 300, good for him, it's rare that Gil-Galad ever pays back his points. Just don't put Saruman in such a danger next time, get him out of there or call a Heroic Combat to get a 50/50 chance of avoiding the duel.


The 1st thing was way above average, he should've killed 4d3 on average, so you were just unlucky. Still, he killed in 1st combat what, 70 points? And he's worth 200. Also, not sure - "then charged into the next Uruk unit" - do you refer to him doing a Heroic Combat and charging into Saruman? In That case it's illegal to call a duel, because it is called at the start of the phase and not during your second fight.


So you gave 2 examples of the most powerful heroes in the game and you're complaining that a Duel is a game breaker. They cost 200+ points for 1 model, OBVIOUSLY they will be strong. Just don't get your heroes under them. And your opponents are getting at least twice the average, so either you're doing something really wrong or they are insanely lucky.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

First things first, the thing that is forgotten more often than only the company gains a hero's Fight value - they only gain it on the attack. Although, I don't believe that that's affected much here.

Secondly, and more to the point, (in both instances) he has used a powerful character and some precious Might. Aragorn gets to use one Epic Action for free each turn (that being the Epic Strike), so he's used two of his Might points (valuable commodities). Thing is, it sounds like a two turn set of attacks, so he called a second Heroic Duel in the next turn (making it three out of his four). He used almost all of his Might to do this and with a character that can be geared up to wipe units without much of his own Might being used. Lastly, with Gil-galad, you could have avoided him (because of the Fight difference), used Might to affect you Voice roll, used Might to Modify your D6 roll or called the Duel yourself and used Might.

Also, as for your two solutions, neither one represents a Duel at all. The Heroic (or Epic) Duel is supposed to be the two fighting to each other and then fighting each other (or one getting to the other). It would be far fairer to reduce the number of dice rolled on the chart somehow.

Lastly, to those saying a single roll on a chart with 2 hits on the character makes no sense. Many have R3 and two have R4 (without items). May have been reading them wrong and it's not just one roll on the table, in which case, ignore that bit

Ok, a bit of clarification on the Aragorn combat...

Game 2:
Was against Aragorn in a 4 company unit of Gondorian warriors. First he called a HEROIC FIGHT and hit my unit (a 4 company Uruk pike unit with a captain), then a heroic duel, then epic strike. He went to a 10 fight versus my 5 and rolled enough to get 8 hits on the table. He wiped out my captain and killed 15 men! I remember him rolling two 6's and three 2-3's, there was also a 4 or 5, and there was a miss, so I have accounted for all but 1 of the dice rolled. So he must have gotten 6 rolls of D3 for casualties, yes, sounds like he got very lucky, but even if he rolled all 1's that is still 6 of my troops dead in addition to my leader, with 9 being more average.

In the melee he made short work of the remaining troops, then using his ability to charge again he charged into the next Uruk unit which had Saruman. He called a Heroic Duel, then epic strike. Saruman was killed along with 12 of his companions. I remember rolling a 3 and he a 5 (+10 for fight value and +1 for calling the duel= +11 to roll) so his was 16 to my 7. He got 9 rolls on the chart, again with two 6's. I do not remember the others, but it led to 12 dead and Saruman.

Granted, he used all his might to do this, but it was only a 750 point game and in one turn the game ended.

I appreciate the feedback, but I'm not convinced. I think the duel is a misunderstood rule that is not in the spirit of the game design. A few bodygards killed, sure, but not entire companies, let alone an entire formation.

Brian

The second duel is against the rules as stated before in this thread. You CANNOT call a duel in the 2nd fight during a Heroic fight because duel is called at the START of the phase and you are not in combat with Saruman at the start of this phase. Effectively your opponent cheated (probably without either of you realising it).

Look at the table properly - 1 doesn't have any effect, it's only 2, 3 and 6 that kill troops, so your statement about only 1s is also incorrect. A mere 50 point captain and 1 company costing 35 points in a combat is nothing, how can you complain about the overpowerement in this case? The 2nd duel in the same turn case is invalid because it's not a legal move...

Everything would be so much easier if people actually read the rules and played by them

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

I would also just point out, not so much the rules issues here, but the forces involved, Aragorn and Saruman are very expensive Heroes to be taking in 750 point games, effectively a third of your army, and it could be argued whoever gets 'first jump' is going to do sufficient damage to the other side in one go making for a short dull game.
I realise you may be just learning the game, try using forces without the uber characters and you get more of a feel of to and fro of the game. Keep the powerful heroes for your larger games... and they will run out of might after first engagements when theres still plenty of other enemy units to worry about.

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com