WOTR Army Restrictions Mark II

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:22 pm

Having considered the feedback for version one, I have reconsidered my approach. The following restrictions from last time remain:
1. You may not have more Epic Heroes (this doesn't include Legendary formations that are monsters) than ordinary heroes (this includes Shamans etc but does not include monstrous heros that are common or rare formations)
2. You may not put more than one Epic Hero in the same formation, unless you run out of non-WSA formations within 18" or the hero has bodyguard, Epic Sacrifice or similar.
3. Councellors may not share their might with another councellor.
4. Will of Iron rolls now work on a 3+ rather than 4+
5. Formations that are not heroes or do not have heroes in them cannot benefit from an overlord's might points. The following troops are exceptions: artillery, Mordor/isengard battering rams, Vault Wardens, Bezerkers, Werewolves, Castellans, Barrow-wights, Ents, Mordor/Isengard/Cave Trolls, Chariots.
6. Crossbows may not benefit from heroic shoots.
7. The following changes are made to the price of heavy infantry. 1. formations whose defence with shield is 7 that are less than 30pts are now 30pts. 2. formations whose defence with shield is 6 that are less than 25pts are now 25pts
8. The Gift of Foresight (Malbeth/Cirdan) works on 5+ rather than 6
9. Gondor Trebuchets & Mordor War Catapults ingore defence bonuses from defensive terrain.
10. Shatter shields spell has no effect upon Vault Wardens & elven longbows can't ignore their shields.

The following heroes from each army list are restricted ie you may not have more than one restricted hero per 1000pts; there are two kinds, heroes that are restricted full stop and heroes that are only restricted when taken as allies For FK this is the same. Some factions also have their own specific restrictions which can also befound below:

Gondor & Arnor
Restricted: Faramir, Imrahil, Isildur
Restricted as allies: Aragorn, Boromir
Other resrictions: you may not have more companies of Axemen of Lossonarch than companies of Clansmen of Lamedon

The Kingdom of Rohan
Restricted: Eomer, Eorl
Restricted as allies: Eowyn, Deorwine
Other restrictions: N/A

The Elven Kingdoms
Restricted: Thranduil
Resricted as allies: Elladan & Elrohor (counts as one), Haldir
Other restrictions: N/A

The Dwarf Holds
Restricted: Balin, Gimli, Dain
Restricted as ally: King's Champion
Other restrictions: you may not have more companies of Khazad Guard than companies of Iron Guard

The Forgotten Kingdoms
Restricted: Tom Bombadil, Saruman, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast
Other restrictions: N/A

Mordor
Restricted: All Ringwraiths (except the Witch-king & the Undying), Gothmog
Restricted as allies: Kardush, The Mouth of Sauron, the Undying
Other restrictions: you may not have more companies of Morannon Orcs than companies of Mordor Orcs with shields

The Fortress of Isengard
Restricted: Thrydan, Saruman
Restricted as allies: Lurtz
Other restriction: N/A

The Misty Mountains
Restricted: Durburz, Druzhag
Restricted as ally: N/A
Other restrictions: you may not have more than one Extremely Hard to Kill monster per 2000pts, you may not have more companies of Gundabad Blackshields than companies of Moria Goblins with shields

The Fallen Realms
Restricted: Ringwraiths (except for the Undying)
Restricted as allies:the Undying, Dalamyr, Queen Beruthiel, Amdur
Other restrictions: you may not have more than one Mumak per 2000pts, you may not have more companies of Corsair Arbalesters than companies of Corsair Raiding Parties/Haradrim Warbands

Angmar
Restricted: the Dwimmerlaik, the Tainted
Restricted as allies: Burdhur,
Other restrictions: you must have at least one company of spirits (not including Gulavhar) per 1000pts, it may treat the Undying as unrestricted

Also, due to their lack of popularity, in order to make command options more appealing to players, the following changes to heir points values has been applied:
Hero - 40pts
Banner - 20pts
Drummer/Hornblower - 10pts
Taskmaster - 20pts
Shaman/Stormcaller/War Priest - 50pts
Goblin Drum - 50pts
Dwarf Shieldbearer - as is
Dragon Knight - as is
Hasharin - 30pts
Corsair Bo'sun - 30pts

The following changes are not restrictions but more of the opposite:

Gondor
The Dunedain of Arnor and The Grey Company cout as wearing enchanted cloaks. Companies of Warriors of the Dead, Riders of the Dead and Court of the Dead King are reduced to 40pts per company. Halbarad's Banner of the King also counts as an Army Banner. Knights of Dol Amroth & Foot Knights of Dol Amroth cost -5pts from their profile.

Rohan
Riders or Rohan & Rohan Outriders are reduced to 25pts per company. In addition, when charging all Rohan cavalry formations (even Royal Knights) may reroll To Hit rolls of 1. Gamling's Standard or Rohan also counts as an Army Banner.

Elves
All Elven longbows may ignore defence bonuses generated from shields and defensive terrain. All formations with glaives improve their striking order: infantry strike before other infantry, cavalry strike before other cavalry, Glorfindel strikes before other monsters.

Dwarves
Dwarf Rangers and Erid Luin Rangers wear enchanted cloaks.

Mordor
Sauron gains the overlord special rule. The Necromancer also counts as an overlord, but only spirit-type formations may benefit from it. If the Necromancer is your army leader, you may choose one Ringwraith to become unrestricted.

Isengard
Ruffians are +5pts.

Misty Mountains
Clouds of Bats strike at the same time as monsters.

Fallen Realms
Serpent Guard & Serpent Riders gain +1 to their defence value. Khandish Warband recieve no penalty for two-handed weapons, Khandish Raiders gain two-handed weapons. Easterling Archers & Kataprakt -5pts per company. Mahud Warbands & Mahud Raiders gain Poisoned weapons special rule, Raiders also have lances and skilled riders special rule. Abrakhan Guard do not have poisoned weapons but instead weild two-handed weapons which provide no penalty to their fight value. Khandish Charioteers & Kings gain Expert Rider rule.

Angmar
Companies of Ghosts & Ghostly Riders are reduced to 40pts, Spectres are reduced to 50pts, Barrow-wights & Werewolves are reducted to 115pts.

Please read through and feel free to provide comment, positive or negative :wink:

Thankyou.

hero of gondor · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:10 pm

Oke some of the positive points:
- The command group changes: Much better now I think especially that banners are more usefull. Captain is still too expensive but it's more appealing to use him now.
- The other estriction of every army. That you need to take orcs for morannon orcs. The only negative point is the corsair arbelester point: The list to use with them is far too large. Restrict it too Corsairs and maybe normal haradrim but not more.

Negative:
- the restricted hero's. The idea is fun but you choose the wrong hero's.

be continuit.

Slythar · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 7:11 pm

1 - Sounds great.
2- Excellent idea and very simple to follow. I like rules that can solve alot of issues in a simple way like this. Heck you don't even have to worry about hero combos
3 - I never experienced this personally but if its a known exploit sounds fair. You could even say you can only have 1 Hero with the Councellor ability period.

I like the allies list in some ways but its a little long. I would try to tackle it differently. My food for thought...

Change the Decree of Allies to choose a faction to ally with. So basically its like Gondor/Rohan or Mordor/Isengard.
Only Hero's above 130 points can be allied. That eliminates all the cheap heros and only a couple remain on your restricted list.
Change the Decree of Rarity. You must have 2 Common formations for every Rare formation.

More extreme...

Change some formations from common to rare. ie Morannon Orcs, Uruk CB
Change some formations to Legendary so they can only have one of them. ie. Blackshields, Khazad Guard, Mumak

Command Options

Costs are fine but must fielding them is unfair. I'd just make them cheaper so people take them if you want them badly.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:09 pm

I have made a few chages. See above.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:23 pm

Oh and, herro of gondor, do you really think fight 7 high elf captains should be less points, the corsair arbalesstors had such a long list as I wanted all of the lists overcosted units to be more popular. Which hero's do you suggest should be restricted.

Slythar,the faction only allying wouldn't work as all the following alliances happened: Gondor/Rohan, Gondor/Elves, Gondor/Rohan/Forgotten Kingdoms, Rohan/Elves, Elves/Forgotten Kingdoms, Elves/Dwarves, Mordor/Isengard, Mordor/Misty Mountains, Mordor/Fallen Reams, Mordor/Angmar, Isengard/Misty Mountains, Angmar/Misty Mountains etc. There's also problems with cheap heros 1.Arwen's 125pts and she's rediculously overcosted, 2.Some like Druzhag to Angmar are highly thematic. Decres or rarity is nice though, unfortunately it wont work for most, making Morannon Orcs rare is basically what I've done just not literally, uruk crossbows could work but its a bit iffy, making Blackshields, Khazad Guard and Mumakil legendary might be okay, but with mumakilo, unless you're playing at 4000pts or more, they essentially are, and it is possible to make fair list with others under careful management.

Xelee · **Posted:** Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:41 pm

Hi GothmogtheWerewolf, I like this better and I think that you have a good mechanism there for theming the lists a little. Re: costs, what things to houserule, this has been chewed over a bit in the last year or so and I compiled a list incorporating those suggestions, here. Essentially, I think the upgrades should be cheaper than what you have : http://roughwotr.blogspot.com/2010/12/h ... dback.html

At the very least, off that list, I would suggest improving Will of Iron and Houseruling Overlord, since you already have the one for Counselors. I would also suggest the price floor for heavy inf with shield, which are too good a deal overall at the moment.

We do not always play with those houserules but I have kept up with maintaining them. The ones at the bottom boosting Elves and Rohan work well for us but are a bit more 'experimental' than the rest.

Cheers

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:48 am

Thanks Xelee, there will be more changes, which can be found in bold. What do you think aboutthe last 4 unique upgrades?

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:43 pm

There are now four sections i) general houserues ii) army restrictions iii) command changes iv) army bonuses/penalties

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:05 pm

Hello.

General Elessar · **Posted:** Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:10 pm

I now feel you've got too many restrictions. I don't mind a few restrictions (indeed, I'll welcome them if they're good), but if you have too many then the game becomes focused on them.

hero of gondor · **Posted:** Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:03 pm

Oke this is the next part of my comment:
- Restricted hero's can work but i think you choose some wrong hero's like: Imrahil, eomer, eowyn , tom bombadil ,eorl What is so overpowered on them?
- Oke high elfs are awesome with your rules: Longbows ignore shields? Fun when playing vault wardens

But serious you made elfs a little too strong because elfs are always going to be striking first with their high fight their are goign to do a lot of damage before you can even attack. It's not warhammer.

Xelee · **Posted:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:58 am

GothmogtheWerewolf,
I like the changes in general, though of course I'd do some costs etc differently but you've seen that. My one substantive comment is that I think a list like you have works best without a restricted heroes list (but keep your themed orientated restrictions) and instead you use houserules to balance units and heroes appropriately. A restricted heroes list is something I (and other events) used as an alternative to more detailed houserules. It is a second-best in terms of balancing but can do a lot and is more likely to be widely accepted.

I would keep all Good ES heroes on that list, but perhaps not all Evil ones. It is easy to put extra might for them into Good lists. Eowyn etc (with no ES) do not look like obvious candidates balance wise though, is this another theme restriction?

Hero of Gondor, those changes to Elves come from a set of houserules that have had a bit of playtesting and have been tried by a few groups now. While I know of at least one case where the Elves have been doing very well, in general they struggle and it is not hard to see why: they cost a lot and are not that hard hitting. I'd much rather have xbow than long bow and I'd much rather have 2HW than Glaives and I can get either of those things on units far cheaper than the elven units without appreciably diminishing their lethality, in practical terms.

In the specific case of Vault Wardens. Yes it is bad for the Vault Wardens, but then a lot of things are and they are the most extreme case. I'd not be inclined to take that unit in WOTR, without some changes anyway, to be honest.

GothmogtheWerewolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:44 pm

General Elessar - I only wanted a few, but I feel it is difficult to balance otherwise, and besides there iis a huge rulebook which you also have to think about when army building and playing.

hero of gondor - firstly eomer is a 90pts resistance 3 epic strike hero, the others can create a few problems but mostly its for thematic reasons; Eowyn wouldn't have fought often, eorl died before most of them were born, bombadil doesn't leave his woods etc... also as xelee whose had personal experience in the matter, said, elves are really high points value with only strength 3 and no shields, compare them to Morannon Orcs, Blacksheilds, Warriors of Minas Tirith, Black Guard, Khazad Guard, Iron Guard, Uruk-hai Warriors, Easterlings etc does it reall y look like they'd slaughter any of those.

Xelee - thank you, the reason I've just kept heroes restricted as that is the one area I don't really want to mess with (apart from the two foresight guys, and something needs too be done to help Arwen) Yes Eowyn & others are for theme, although I might relaxit on one or two, yes it is harder for evil to get might points (it's a pity that the only 3 heros who can regenerate might, 1 is a hight points value easy to kill monster, one is a low fight spellcaster and one has to keep calling duels and could still run out, and that Gothmog & Durburz are too cheap) I wouldn't have place any restriction Amdur, but if someone puts him in 3 companies of half-trolls with 2-handers, there could be trouble, (though not as much as aforementioned felowship combo)

Ps Vault Wardens will be helped in a minute, though not much (they can already benefit from overlord if anyoone wants to use Gandalf the White, but it will be so that they can't have their shiels shattered and longbows benefits don't work on them).

WOTR Army Restrictions Mark II

Who is online