I think that the epic actions that are called at the beginning either 1. go along the same way as heroic actions (the only difference being that they are called seperate from heroic actions ie, roll off for the heroic actions THEN roll off for epics), OR 2. you just call out the ones that you are going to use at the beginning, only rolling off ones that actually effect outcomes of other epics. The only Epic action that I can see there being trouble with is the Epic Shot and Epic Duel. The Epic Duel seems like it's the only one that really needs to be called at the VERY beginning (option 1), whereas Epic Shot could cause difficulty in which one goes first as Gothmogs formation could be driven back to far and so on. Maybe for the Epic Shot, just have it that they are resolved at the same time like an infantry vs infantry fight. The other ones (other than epic journey) seem that you won't need a roll off. Epic Journey (shudder) being copied would be horrifying. Either you would move Aragorns formation, then Gothmogs, or you would move them at the same time, or you would roll off. That seems like the only H/E action that you would want to copy AFTER the fact.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Most of this should go in the Timing THread

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

OMG...I didn't even think of Gothmog copying Epic Journey. Wow. I guess you would almost need to keep him in a small Formation "just in case" since Aragorn probably isn't going to pay to more more than a few Companies. I would argue that if Gothmog wanted to copy Epic Journey then he can't move any more Companies than Aragorn paid for himself. That would be an ugly one though.

Epic Shot...I'd just let the original one complete and than have Gothmog's Epic Shot happen. Again, both of these can be clarified in advance w/ your opponent.

Still feeling like if you had a list of the couple Heroic and Epic actions that MAY cause a timing issue it would only take a couple minutes while you are both setting up your models to decide how to handle them if they come up during the game. If you ever plan on attending an official Event then you could also send the list to the organizer in advance and ask how they will rule on them since you're almost guaranteed to face Gothmog there (if you don't have him yourself already).

Open communication, especially in advance, can solve nearly anything that may come up at a game table.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I have only played WOTR, never played fantasy or 40k so just a quick question to everyone, does GW ever change obvious points mistakes with units? For eg would they change say the value of Gothmog to say 175? Have they ever done that in the other forms of the game? And would they ever change a players abilities? Say to make the Witch Kings abilities to the best as really he should have the best abilities?

The best abilities of the Ringwraiths that is.

I can only speak for SBG. Initially that game system started with the FotR, TTT and RotK Rulebooks (these are different than the Journey books). I wasn't involved in the game yet while those were the current sets but when I have looked thru them when I first started playing. When they produced the big blue One Ring rule book they cleaned up some rules, made a few balance changes, some profile tweaks and point adjustments. This change really made SBG a good, solid system for years after (though there has been some profile growth creep near the end). This is what gives me hope for WotR.

I don't expect GW to adjust the points or profiles of any of the existing forces in WotR any time soon. They seem very reluctant to admit a mistake from what I've seen. But I do feel if the game sticks around a little longer they may give us a revision and take that opportunity to clean up a lot of the balance and other "first try" issues. Of course...they may not feel it is an issue at all or at least not one worthy of investing in resources to correct.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Hi Beowulf, I have heard other people say things like what you say, "they seem reluctant to admit a mistake". How do you know this? Is there a way to have some dialogue with the creators of the game? By and large the WOTR games looks pretty strong, just needs tweaking here and there.

Mine is opinion based on my dealing with other companies...or specifically with one company. I was a local representative for Precedence Publishing for a couple years while they were at their height with the Babylon 5 and Wheel of Fire CCGs. Obviously a CCG that has had several series of hundreds of cards produced is bound to start developing broke combos or having something come out that nerfs something unexpectedly. Pretty close to what can happen in an expanding miniature wargame, but maybe even more so. Here are a few things that impressed me about them and set the bar for service in that area.

1. They were a relatively small company and so play testing internally would have to be limited. Though I wasn't part of any of their external play testing teams they were well engaged with other PrecReps (as we were called) for play testing and feedback.

2. They're own website hosted two active forums. One for the open player community and one internal for PrecReps. The company had people on these answering questions and taking feedback. The internal forum could get pretty heated at times but all of those discussions stayed "inside the family". We didn't let it spill out to the public forum and once a decision was made it was supported in the public forums. But don't take that to mean there were many issues. Just some people like to argue a point or play devil's advocate, or may even WANT something to go a certain way for their own views...and such discussions may go on for a few days until a consensus is reached or the company just says "that's the way we want it". After that the PrecReps support a unified front.

3. They had a very active FAQ. I'd even call it a live document. If something was clarified in the forum that warranted inclusion in the FAQ it would be there within a week. Before any major event I always printed the latest FAQ.

4. They had no problem issuing errata or corrections if a card was misprint or it turned out that something just didn't work as expected. There were not many major errata issued but if something needed it they never seemed to hesitate to fix it rather than let the mistake stand.

The GW FAQs are very stagnant, especially in the world we live in where such a document could be updated monthly relatively easily and published on their site for global dissemination. They have no good formal process for direct submission of questions and are not very timely in responding to the ones that have been submitted. And I have seen no offical, regular, direct participation of their design staff here or at TLA, and am not aware of any other SBG/WotR forum where they can be engaged.

If by official decree or simply company culture GW seems very aloof and detached from the actual player community. At least in respect for their LotR line. And I haven't seen this any different for the time (aprox 6 years) that I've been a GW LotR player.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Also, we have years of experience with how GE respond to things in the Warhammer lines and the overwhelming reaction GW takes is to hold fast and call any mistake a "feature"

The recent debacle with Finecast is an excellent example. Products were released before the process was ready, fraught with mistakes caused by improperly trained temp staff and accompanied by a price raise, but GW insisted throughout the entire release that Finecast was an amazing development in miniature technology and would revolutionize gaming. The closest they have ever really gotten to admitting they fumbled it is to have stopped pushing it so heavily.

They did fix the point cost of the court of the dead king in the FAQ though. That was obviously an error in the writing and formatting rather than one of balance and playtesting though. Realistically speaking we are not likely to see any points adjusted unless we get a second edition of the game.

Speaking of points cost, the Uruk Berserkers are 110 points in their profile, but they're 75 points in the Isengard vs Rohan battle report at the front of the book. Also, does anyone know where to actually FIND the rest of that battle report? I know this doesn't really belong here, but it kinda came up.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

They never did the rest of the report.

The game for the battle report was probably played during playtesting and used different points than the final version, or GW are just stupid and don't even know how to play their own games. Take your pick. The points in the books are the ones to use.

That's what I figured.

The 75 pts did seem a bit more fair to pay for the berserkers, that's just why I was asking.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

We escaped a little the subject
Anyway after mass confusion Gothmog cause a roll off or not... I believe he goes second

Except with certain Epic Actions, as needed in certain circumstances.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

May I ask why, he calls a heroic action so why wouldn't he follo normal heroic action rules?

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Because following the normal heroic action rules has his action entering the queue immediately after an enemy calls an action.

Just like we have been discussing for the past week or two.

there's no such thing as queue

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

Oh geez, it's not a queue as named in the book, it's a queue as named by us for simplicities sake.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

it isnt simple

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.