That is true, but it STILL forces a roll off for epic actions. They aren't called at the beginning of the turn, they are called by the player when he wants to use it.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

The way you said that, Jobu suggests that it is only a houserule.

_________________
"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

But I think Gothmog's impact on a queue, implicit or not, would only matter if you treat him as allowing an ADDITIONAL action to be called. As the players go back and forth and declare actions, instead of declaring an action that costs Might, don't you just use Gothmog's special ability to declare the action last called by you opponent for free?

As long as you keep it simple like this the action is just inserted normally in the queue, cost you no Might, and the next choice of action goes back to your opponent.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

That beowulf makes sense

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

So yes, you call all of the actions that each player wants to make, then they begin to resolve,



Whether or not Gothmog's player gets to call a second action right away is debatable, but so far no one has bothered to debate that. So far we have simply been arguing about whether Gothmog's ability allows him to call an action before the hero that triggers the ability calls theirs.


We are going to alternate pushing buttons. First I push a button a button then you push a button then me and so on.
You have a special rule that says "When I push a button, you may immediately pull a lever"
Does that rule allow you to pull the lever before I push the button? Or does it mean that, when I push a button you may pull the lever before you push your next button?


I was afraid this was going to swerve into this argument.


Clearly SOME epic actions are called a the start of the phase.



So Epic Actions work just like Heroic actions except when they have to be called. That means if both players want to call them at the same time you still use a queue



That, at least is a debatable point. The rules say that Epic Actions

and then all the Epic actions that don't say they are called at the start of the phase say they are called before a particular action. I take that to mean that Epic Charge, for instance, is called, and can only be called "When the Hero's formation is due to charge", not whenever the player wants to call them.

Epic actions work just like Heroic actions except where indicated, which means the same rules for Gothmog's ability apply to to them as to Heroics




No we can't, because of the rules I just quoted.


And you think that based on what?

"May immediately call" could also mean, as the next available step. In other words, Player B can't call an action with a captain and then later in the phase use Gothmog's rule to freely call an action called by Player A earlier in the phase. If he doesn't act on the opportunity immediately then he lost that opportunity.

Again, if you treat his action simply as a chance to call the LAST CALLED action for free, but in the same rule-specified sequence of all other calls, then the problems go away for the most part I would think. If you try to use him to allow you to effectively call two actions in the sequence when you would otherwise only call one (either paid with Might or free with Gothmog) then it complicates things (the order) and I think that goes against the spirit and intention.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Ok lets get silly. I'm coming at this in a logical/mechanical point of view. What you do with your group is fine but this is how I see it.
Lets break this down to How to Call Herioc Actions and Ignore Gothmog for a moment.
This can only happen at the beginning of any phase. pg.66 Herioc Actions

1. Player with Priority may declare that they wish to make a Herioc Action. If so then go to #2a If not then go to #2b 2a. Player without Priority may declare that they wish to make a Herioc Action. If so then go to #4 If not then go to #5 2b. Player without Priority may declare that they wish to make a Herioc Action. If so then go to #3 If not then #8 3. Player with Priority may declare that they wish to make a Herioc Action. If so then go to #4 If not then go to #5 4. Roll D6 to see who picks first. 1 to 3 Evil, 4 to 6 Good. Alternate picks in the next step. 5. Indicate, in order, the Hero and the action. 6. Remove might used to call actions. 7. Work out Herioc Actions. 8. Continue with Phase.

Bang on? I think so. Now understand this, once you get past a step, you cannot go back.

If you are working out Heroic Actions (#7), you cannot declare more Herioc actions.(#5)
If your opponent did not roll-off(#4), then he cannot call Herioc actions (#5)
This is to be fair to your opponent that your are not taking back a move/decision after he has revealed his plan.

In regards to Gothmogs ability,
He loses his chance to call Herioc actions if he did not roll off. All Hero's are capable of calling Herioc actions but are only enabled to do so by declaring it at the start of the phase.
If Gothmog's army did roll for picks, once his enemy calls an action only then is he able to duplicate it for free with his side's pick. In regards to re-Roll-offs, read pg. 27 "If the rules require..." Gothmog's Master of Battle rule does not implicitly say a "roll-off" is required. All it says is Immediate which means nothing. There is no rule for Immediate and it is just fluff.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

I think it is right... In case Gothmog goes with the evil player(ormaybe good if he is fighting against evil...)

Hmmm, interesting, I like your approach

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

How anyone can argue with the superb reasoning of Forgottenlore is beyond me!!!! He seems to be the only person on here that is actually quoting from the book, maybe everyone else should start doing the same.

Have you actually read anyone else's poss or were you too mezmorosed by FL?

(This was not meant to be offensive by the way)

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I just read the post I agree with and delete all the others!! then write" I agree" with lots of Smilies it's just a natural ability .

Yeah I have read all the posts, just because you play a certain way at your GW doesn't make it right, when I go to my GW I get conflicting answers from different staff members. However Forgottenlore always backs up his or her comments up with page references whereas by contrast you don't Mr or Miss Gothmogthewearwolf!!!

So you're saying that unless Gothmogs player plans to spend a point of might to begin with, then they can't use his ability?

Anyhows, I now agree with FL on the point of Heroic Actions. I do not agree with him about the Epic Actions, because they aren't all called at the beginning of the phase.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

But are otherwise treated like Heroic actions so all the rules for Heroic Actions should apply to Epics except specifically when they are called.

Anyway, the timing of Epic actions is a topic for another thread,

specifically, this one:

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=21664

Gothmog's special rules is calling a heroic or epic action and as such should be handled in the same way. He does not just get sidelined because he doesn't use might, has to do the same action as another hero or is too powerful (if you said yes he should get sidelined because of reason 1, then same should apply to Aragorn etc, if you said yes to reason 2, that would be silly and would appl to all heroes, if you said reason 3, then this meams for example, Khamul is too overpowered so hew should get sidelined ie he cannot deflect hits until turn 6)

For references see index page in WOTR rulebook and look up 'Gothmog' 'Heroic Actions' and 'Epic Actions' or see my aforementioned posts.

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

You guys have the rulebook. Do whatever you please. I think a core rule should always override a special unless its specific enough to break the cycle. And at that point it has to be clear on how to precede.

Gothmog's is not specific enough so you have to turn to the core rules. Gothmog is easily confused and abused for good reason. He is awesome.

_________________
http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

Actually, the timing of the epic action is everything, because Gothmog can copy those too. The thing about when EAs are called is that they are called when you get to the formation, not at the beginning of the entire phase. So you can keep EAs secret until you come to them, instead of revealing which ones go when. Unless I'm really not reading the rules right, which I don't think I am.

Again, we need another FAQ from GW.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

But for what Epic Actions do you see Gothmog as being a problem?

A player calls Epic Tranquility so their Formation can't be charged...Gothmog can do that immediately for free and will have the most tranquil Orcs in Mordor. No problem.

Epic Charge, Epic Defense, Epic Rage, Epic Strike, Epic Shot, Epic Cowardice...no conflicts I can see. Gothmog's copy of these won't interfere with the original called action.

Epic Sacrifice...I would LOVE to see someone goof and copy this one.

There may be some other Epic Actions that appear specifically under one model's Profile that may need to be looked at more closely, but I don't think so. If anyone has one they can think of then bring them up.

Gothmog's timing is really starting to look more like a non-issue for the most part with perhaps one or two Actions that could be confusing. If those are called out and discussed before the game starts you're probably set.

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

I think the only ones that are really an issue as far as the timing goes are some of the Epic actions that are called at the start of the phase and I think we are all agreed that those work timing wise just like heroic actions, the ones that are called when the hero is due to act all look pretty safe from a timing perspective.

I can't tell anymore who does and does not agree on how the timing of Gothmog's ability works for start of phase actions though.

I do wonder about the repercussions of Gothmog copying Aragorn's Epic Journey though. there might be some timing issues there, the wording might prevent Gothmog from copying that one, it might be totally broken, I don't know.