Please do

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

So at the start of the move phase I say "I am going to call at least one H/E Action now." Then what? Before the roll off that is all I am required to say.

No, you have to say which hero(s) is(are) calling the heroic move.

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

Wrong. You don't have to declare which actions you want to call until after the roll off. For that matter you don't even have to declare which heroes are going to be taking actions until after the roll off. The rules are very clear about this.



Not what actions they wish to make or even what heroes they want to make the actions, just whether or not they want to make any actions.



after both players have declared that they want to make actions, THEN you roll off.

The sequence in the rules, and it is really very clearly written, is

Declare intention to call actions
If both players intend to, then roll off
Player 1 picks a hero to call action A
Player 2 picks a hero to call action B
Player 1 picks a hero to call action C
and so on until they are done calling actions,

Then resolve Action A
Then resolve Action B
Then resolve Action C
and so on


Gothmog cannot use his ability until:

"Player 1 picks a hero to call action A" (assuming Gothmog's player is player 2)

Once player 1 does that, then Gothmog may also call action A, but Gothmog cannot do that until the enemy hero has already called his.

Actions occur in the order they are picked
The roll off only determines who gets to pick first
Gothmog cannot use his ability until an enemy hero has already picked

I agree with Draugluin

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

That seems right...

i agree with forgottonlore for the simple reason , its what it says in the rule book! Page 66, par 3 says - "the players must delacre their wish to make a heroic action at the start of the phase beginning with the player that has priority for that turn" Can someone please tell me where it says that i have to tell my opponent which hero is making heroic actions or what the heroic action is going to be? So seeing as i have not stated which hero or action i am calling, how can Gothmog call it? It is not until AFTER that you roll a dice randomly to determine which side has the first pick . im only new to the game as youve probably guessed but even i can clear see this!;.

Well, you can ONLY declare a a specific heroic action in a certain phase, you can't call a heroic shoot in the move phase, so that isn't the part that is confusing. It is wierd how Gothmog's rule is kinda supposed to preempt an enemy, but then the normal rules don't really allow that. Wierd.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

What about epic actions? They do not always have a defined phase in which to be called. Like epic strike, epic tranquility and I am sure there are others.

His rule does not state anywhere that he is supposed to be able to preempt. Just that he may immediately call an action of the same type and he is be able to DUPLICATE some epic actions he does not have in his profile.

And Werewolf, since Gothmog is duplicating/performing an action while not being in the queue for actions, I only want to bring up the possibility that he may go last to keep within the written rules. I don't think this is the case but it is within the realm of possibility.

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..

I don't see his ability as trying to preempt an enemy, after all the enemy hero doesn't have to be involved with Gothmog at all just nearby. I see it more as an attempt to give evil some ways to play with and conserve Might. Trying to cash in on the whole "evil can't create things on its own but can do twisted parodies of what good does" thing.

For many Heroic actions it does. Someone wants to go first and declares an Heroic Charge, Gothmog can counter with a free one. If he's charging a totally different Formation then you just let the two take place normally, but if either of these two Heroic Charges could impact the other then you'd dice it off. Someone wants Farmir to declare an Heroic Duel and Gothmog copies it. If Gothmog's free one is against Farmir then you'd dice it off. But if that first Heroic Duel is against a Shaman in a different Formation, and Gothmog's free one is against a Captain not involved in the other fight then there's no need to dice anything off.

In some cases the free one doesn't need to be diced off because Gothmog's call isn't necessarily impacting the outcome of the original Action he is copying. If Gothmog's free one can interrupt the original Action completing then you need to dice it off.

I haven't posted much (real comments at least) into this thread yet but I just want to say I have to wonder if it's a case of suffering from over-examination. It is really an overpowered, under priced special rule but I don't know if I'd say it's that complex in how it's used in the game. It's one thing to come up with various situations that make it a mess theoretically, or to try to make an overriding rule to cover all possible combos, but I don't think that's needed.

The designers probably didn't think out this rule (or Theodred's similar one) very will simply from a cost perspective, but I think in the spirit of the game most situations would present themselves with a solution at the time of the event and application of a little common sense.

A few people have brought up the concept of a queue, and as a Unix/middleware/python/shell hacker (small 'h') I live with various queue implementations on a daily basis. But I think we're overcomplicating the turn process by trying to apply a queue where one does not explicitly exist. At the beginning of the phase you declare if you have anyone that is going to use Might to modify that part of the phase. If you both do, dice it off to see who starts declaring first. Then either that one player says theirs or the two players alternate based on the die roll. If someone calls an action that Gothmog then decides to copy just ask yourself if that copy has a chance of disrupting the original action. If so, then it should be diced off.

This is not really much different than in normal Heroic Action play. Let's say two Formations want to call Heroic Charge against each other because each wants the charge bonus. No matter which player was first to declare it, don't you still dice off to see which one actually happens first since they are in conflict with each other? The only real difference is now that second one is "free".

Just some thoughts while I should be doing other things here at work...

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Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Indeed and Well said!

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Leonardis
Army blog:Http://www.thewarofthering.blogspot.co.uk/

I agree, go Beowulf!

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

That is how a lot of people WANT it to work, but nothing in the rules suggests that gothmog's ability is meant to preempt the other hero's action, only that the ability allows Gothmog to call an extra action.


No, it isn't very complex, unless you start trying to add things in that aren't supported by the rules or assuming something works contrary to the way the rules very clearly say they do.


I am surprised it took this long for someone to try this defense:

In other words the first actions called are the first actions resolved. FIFO - First In, First Out. The book doesn't use the word queue, but that is the definition of a queue. We have only been using the term because it is easier than writing out a whole big long sentence that simply describes a queue.



NO NO NO NO How many times do I have to copy this part of the rules.


The die roll determines the order in which actions are called, NOT THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY ARE RESOLVED
The rules I just quoted are absolutely, indisputably crystal clear on that, H/E actions are worked out in the order they were picked. All gothmog's ability is doing is allowing him to call an extra action that he wasn't normally going to but it is still resolved "in the order they were picked" and he CAN'T choose to call his action until after I call mine.

I agree

Your mastery of font management is impressive.

Quoting from the books is very clear and probably the best data that can be used in any discussion. Many of us don't have access to the RAW at all times we're here on OR though which is why I phrased several points as questions...just in case there was a gap there. The rule quotes help a lot in this discussion.

I knew that the order of declaration was a back-and-forth but to clarify in the rules, are these resolved at the same time you declare them or are all Heroics for that phase declared and then resolved in the order of declaration? For example: you go back and forth and Player A calls an Heroic Charge, then Player B calls an Heroic Charge, then Player A calls a second one with a different formation. Then after all have been declared you resolve them with P-A's first declared one, then P-B's first declared one, then P-A's second declared one. Is that how the standard rules are written? That would definitely create an implicit queue.

In such a case, wouldn't Gothmog's player's use of him simply insert into that queue?

Player A declares Heroic Charge
Player B uses Gothmog to copy it for free
Player A declares a second Heroic Charge
Player B declares a second (first one he "pays for") Heroic Charge using a different Hero

When it's time to resolve you do P-A's first HCharge, then P-B's free Gothmog one, then P-A's second, then P-B's second.

Right???

Or are people thinking that it would be (I do not believe this is right or intended):

P-A - declare Heroic Charge
P-B - use Gothmog
P-B - declare Heroic Charge ( note: two declarations in a row...I don't think this is as intended in the rules!)
P-A - declare second HC

_________________
Wait ye the finish! The fight is not yours.
Beowulf

http://TacticsInMiniature.com

Generally immediately means at the same time. So the VERY second you call your H action, Gothmog calls his. This is inserted into the "queue" at the exact same place as the original, forcing a dice off to see which one gets to go first. E actions are never called at the beginning of the phase, so there is no "queue" for E actions. They are called by saying "I call an Epic Duel with so and so", then Gothmog will immediately do the same, without any "queue". They are called whenever a player wants to call them, so then Gothmog can copy them right then and there. If this would have an impact on the order done, like an Epic Duel, then you need to dice off, if it doesn't, like an Epic Strike, then you really don't need to. You'll need to look at each Epic Action individually, because some that might not seem like they will have an effect on order, like Epic Shot, might actually have one, ie taking a formation to it's last half company.

Forgottenlore, I completely understand your reasoning behind what you are saying, but I think we can agree that, at the very least, I am right when it comes to the Epic actions. I may not be right with the H actions though, so that is still open to debate, and will most likely never be answered until we get another FAQ.

(because that is SO likely )

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"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

The word 'queue' should be banned.

I am going to have another read of the rules tonight, not because I think you are right ForgottenLore but the conviction that you put into it is ALMOST, making me rethink.

Toodlepip

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"I am the Flying Spagetti Monster. Thou shall have no other monsters before me"
-FSM.

I agree. What he said about what the rules state is true, BUT I still think Master of Battle was supposed to override it to a degree.

_________________
"Leave Sauron to me."
If you're in the Raleigh, NC area, let me know.

I think some of you are missing in what order H/E action(s) are performed. There is only ever ONE dice off, one, this is not disputable it is in the rules. This one roll off determines the order of actions for that phase.

There are no other roll offs for action order after this one, there is nothing written in gothmogs rule that says he forces another roll off either.

There is also no mechanic in the book that allows for a second roll off.

Even if there is only one action called on the good side gothmog does not force a roll off, he is not using might, he is not actually calling an action at the start of the phase, he does not get to be in the queue of actions unless he has spent might to call one at the beginning of the phase. He duplicates the action, he can not duplicate any action until the action occurs.

A lot of your complain about how overpowered gothmog is, well, using his rule in this manner takes a lot of that power away by reducing the number of opportunities he has to use his special rule.

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richmondwarmancers we play Lord of The Rings, Battlefleet Gothic, Infinity, some board games, and really whatever tickles our fancy..