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Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
http://wap.one-ring.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=31734		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  mr. dude [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
This is a two-parter that came up in my last game:

First, I had a few of my cavalry models charge my opponent's mounted captain. One of them got counter-charged by an infantry model, thus splitting it off into my models vs. my opponent's mounted captain, then my charging cavalry vs. my opponent's infantry. Where does that leave me with regards to charge bonuses in the cavalry vs. infantry fight?

On the surface, it's cavalry vs infantry, I get charge bonuses. When I read the exact wording of the rule however, it seemed to suggest that, since I charged an enemy cavalry model, my cavalry loses its bonuses (regardless of the fact that that's not who I'm fighting anymore). I went with the latter ruling and didn't give myself the charge bonus, but I felt like it was a grey area worth being discussed.

Part II:
The fight phase came, we had the mounted captain combat first, captain lost and got dehorsed. Where does this leave our answer to Part I? I still charged a cavalry model, but by the time this combat happened, the model I charged was no longer a cavalry model.

Any thoughts on this?
Author:  Jobu [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
Part 1: if you charge a mounted model in the charge phase and get counter charged by infantry causing fights to split, you still get the charge bonus vs the infantry if that infantry combat gets split off. It is about when the fight is resolved, you charged, he countered but the fight becomes cav vs foot. You get the bonus if you a: charged and b: the fight is resolved vs only models on foot.

Part 2: If the captain gets thrown off his horse you only get double strikes if he rolls a 1 on the fallen rider chart, because the captain would be on the ground. Now, non monstrous cavalry charging non-monstrous cavalry does not automatically cause a rider to be thrown when losing combat. they simply lose combat. You can choose to strike the horse or the rider though, if you kill the mount then the rider is thrown. If you have multiple people in combat with the captain and roll each models strikes separately then you can potentially kill the mount and throw the captain to the ground( if, as above, the captain rolls a 1). The strikes after the mount is killed are normal unless the captain rolled a 1.
Author:  SouthernDunedain [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
Quote:
If the captain gets thrown off his horse you only get double strikes if he rolls a 1 on the fallen rider chart, because the captain would be on the ground.


This is incorrect (well partly) I'm afraid.

(pg 53 hobbit rulebook) - If the mount is slain, after all attacks against the mount and rider have been resolved, the rider must roll on the thrown rider table. So even if you kill the horse with the first strike, the captain doesn't get thrown until the end of the fight.
Author:  Galanur [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
Southern is right... you can imagine all striking at same time, exception its with heroic combats in which if on the 1st round of combat the mounted model gets knocked, then on the 2nd fight the knocked effect will then apply.

Of course this is combat, what you normally see out there is the horse being killed on shooting or with magic, in which this case its completly diferent.

The cav charge bonus are nullified on a combat in which hes facing another cav model, if the enemy throw 2 models(1 being cav) at your foot model and then you counter the enemy cav model with a cav model of your own, the enemy cav model will have to fight the other combat and therefore will take no effect on your primarly 1st foot model target who got charged by.(and gain no bonuses cause hes fighting your mounted model rather than the 1st foot option he charged into).
Author:  Galanur [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
On the other hand if you charge 3 models(1 being cav) you gain no bonus at all... if by someway the enemy cav loses his horse before entering combat phase) you will therefore get the bonus cause for that combat phase purposes you´re fighting foot models since the enemy rider lost his horse long ago.
Author:  Jobu [ Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
Huh, I will have to look at that in the hobbit rules. I did not think it specified after ALL the strikes in a combat. I assumed it was just one models strike(s), so rolling each model individually would allow one to unseat a mounted model before rolling for the next model(in the same combat) strikes.
Author:  mr. dude [ Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, I haven't been near my rulebook in a while. I'm looking at it now, there is a quote that continues to give me doubt about the answer.
Big Rulebook, P52:
"In order to claim these bonuses, mounted models must have charged only models on foot and be in base contact exclusively with models on foot when the Fight is resolved."

The second half of the quote is already an answer, you're in base contact with a mounted enemy even though you're no longer fighting. The first half has a grey area; I charged enemy cavalry, now I'm in contact with infantry.

I'm still leaning toward no, I don't get bonuses because my cavalry didn't charge infantry, but I would like to see a healthy discussion brew
Author:  Dr Grant [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
You do get the bonuses. It's a very specific situation that isn't covered by the rules but the intent is quite clear. The rule is described as representing the weight and force of the cavalry model as it hits an infantry model (or something like that) and in your example this would still be the case.

Furthermore, you won't be in base contact with the cavalry model when the Fight is resolved. In the rules for splitting Fights it tells you to separate the models during the Move phase. Thus, at the start of the Fight phase, your charging cavalry model will only be in base contact with the infantry model and so will get the bonuses.
Author:  mr. dude [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
I was about to contest that with an FAQ I remember about whether the King's Champion and his Heralds lose their defence bonus if the Heralds get charged, but the FAQ supports your point.

Fair enough, I do still find it a grey area but there's enough evidence to suggest that the cavalry model does get its bonuses. Well done team!
Author:  avantar [ Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cavalry vs. Cavalry, Multiple Combats and Charge Bonuses
I dont know the rules clearly state you will not get the bonuses if you charge a cavalry model, so even if you end the combat with only infantry you still wouldn't get it.

its a and/and situation,
-have you charged only models on foot
-are you in base contact with models on foot only

if you say you get the bonuses then the first rule is unnecessary clutter that doesn't provide anything to the rule book, since the second rule would cover everything.
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