I can't do this anymore. Whatever you say Fracus.

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http://drinkingwotr.blogspot.com/ - Links to my CrAzY House Rules, Games and 'poor man's' terrain.

that is a good argument.
but "may" is not restrictive to say the only way it may leave a terrain feature (as a formation can also leave by losing combat).
and movement is different from charging. it is a different phase. thus this rule allows a unit to leave in the movement phase. why should it be read as restricting the charge phase, which occurs two phases later?


@slythar
this is an open thread and participation is voluntary
thanks for your comment thus.
i understand this is how you play it. i just don't see the rules stipulating this to be how it should play. it may be thus it if so should be clarified.

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warmancer

The problem is Fracas nobody agrees with you, but you won't budge, why don't you admit to majority rule?

yeah i understand that.

but the problem i have is that y'all's argument is not grounded in the rules
and i am trying to understand why y'all have gone with rules as interpreted rather than rules as written.

and of course truth/veracity/accuracy isn't predicated on numerical superiority


thanks to all who have voiced their thoughts.

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warmancer

It is grounded by the rules. You're just ignoring the one and only rule allowing the formation to leave the terrain... There's no interpretation going on, the RAW reading is that you can only leave defensible terrain by moving.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

not true
you can also leave terrain when losing a fight
just as you can also enter defensive terrain by wining a fight
neither are instances of movement

movement is separate from charging which is separate from fighting
movement rules regulate movement. it does not regulate a formation position changing as a charge. it does not regulate a formation position changing as a result of a fight.

y'all are applying movement rules to a charge.
that might have been rules as intended, but it is not rules as written.


Food for thought.
if a formation cannot charge out of terrain, what is to stop anyone from trapping an enemy dragon/balrog (or any formation for that matter) in a defensible terrain such as walled field by placing companies outside within 1" of and surrounding the terrain? by the rules of defensible terrain if you cannot place a company outside but touching the defensible terrain the formation may not exit a defensible terrain by moving.

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warmancer

You can exit and still be partially or fully in it, because you're touching it with at least 1 company as per leaving rules. Then the rules of moving through it on page 55 (Our Numbers Are Too Great) would apply.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

p55 Our Numbers are too great.
"However, any formation is allowed to move through an unoccupied defensive terrain feature, counting it as difficult terrain in all respects."

note, a formation occupying a defensive terrain at the start of its movement would have that terrain feature count as being occupied by itself and thus would not be eligible for the "Our Numbers Are Too Great!" rule.
Also moving through an unoccupied defensive terrain feature is not same as moving out of an occupied terrain feature.

Or are we now suggesting that a formation that can occupy a defensive terrain feature (due to being able to fit within and of the right type) can declare in its move that it is no longer occupying it, just passing through, but not actually move physically on the table top due to enemy companies within 1"? And if we accept that this formation is not occupying but just passing through the defensive terrain, then would you not allow it to charge as it is no longer charging from an occupied defensive terrain feature?

interesting

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warmancer

At the very moment that you declare that you're moving out, the feature stops being occupied, so yes you can position yourself in that same place but stop occupying it. Why not? How is it not the same? What rule stops you from moving out of occupation and still being on the area of the terrain?

Once you left the feature, there is nothing stopping you from charging on normal basis, is there?

The rules basically work as follows:
- If you are occcupying the terrain, then the only way of leaving is to do it in the move phase
- If you've moved out in the move phase, you are free to charge

- You can't charge out of the terrain feature during charge phase if you are occupying it. Think of it as a way of not being prepared to charge out, but having to first form yourself properly... makes a lot of sense logically that you have to prepare yourself while in fluff sense the models are position all over the place and occupying/defending all the positions within it, so first they have to order themselves into formation and then they are free to charge, otherwise you'd just send them out like a bunch of rabble without any formation.

Add to that the fact that each company has to make its own move - when you're occupying terrain you don't actually have any specific companies, just the terrain base is your formation - you have no idea where each company actually stands, so you have no idea whether they would go over their maximum movement limit or not: that rules-wise doesn't make sense.

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Coordinator of the Great British Hobbit League

so all i have to do to charge out of defensive terrain is to declare i am no longer occupying it in the move phase, that i am just moving through it even though i don't have to physically move? just forgo any defensive benefit to the terrain in doing so?
i don't have to move at all after that declaration in the move phase. risk being shot at outside of defensive terrain. and then in the charge phase charge, because i am no longer occupying terrain?
so this would be ok?
1. i declare i am no longer occupying the terrain, just passing through in the move phase.
2. as i am no longer occupying defensive terrain, just passing through, i am free to charge in the upcoming charge phase.

or do i have to actually leave the terrain.
and if i cannot physically leave because there are enemy companies within 1" can i still charge or am i trapped?

so after all this discussion we come to an agreement that i can charge out of defensive terrain merely through declaring i am not occupying it in the move phase?


with this interpretation using "Our Numbers Are Too Great!" what is to stop me from declaring i am not occupying the terrain, just passing through, in order to avoid the courage test when there is an enemy within 6". afterall, by this interpretation i am no longer in defensive terrain, just passing through. and if i am passing through, i am no longer restricted to "leaving defensive terrain".
1. i declare i am no longer occupying the terrain, just passing through.
2. i ignore courage test restriction for enemy within 6" as i am not leaving defensive terrain, just passing through.
3. i may on the double as well as i am not leaving defensive terrain, just passing through.
out of curiosity, how would you place the companies passing through since companies previously occupying terrain has 360 degree facing.


seems to me this is exploiting a loop hole, thus a rule as interpreted instead of rule as intended. gaming the rules sort to speak.
i think the net result is the same, that you can charge from terrain, whether you are occupying it or just passing through.
i think the rules remain more clear with allowing formations to charge out of defensive terrain.


btw, your statement remains erroneous
" If you are occcupying the terrain, then the only way of leaving is to do it in the move phase"
as i have already illustrated an example of leaving a defensive terrain through losing a fight.

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warmancer

Hi Fracas



No, follow the rules on p53 for exiting a terrain Feature, and look at the example. It cleary demonstrates you need to "leave/exit" the terrain, and may not move further. You can't just declare you're no longer "occupying" it.



Similarily how would you choose a spearhead company in the charge phase, if your troops are occupying the terrain seeing as your troops don't occupy a "tray" (this would be distinct from passing through)? There is no mechanism in the rules to resolve this. I don't believe you can charge out of a defensible terrain feature if you are "occupying" it. But you can charge from difficult terrain if you are "moving through it" as p55 "Our numbers are to great allows". I agree with the concensus that in fact you need to "Exit" the terrain to charge if you are "Occupying" it.

Interestingly how do you play the sentence under Occupying a terrain feature 2) which reads. "A formation may not touch an unoccupied defensible terrain feature if it is not intending to occupy it". And how do you resolve this against p55 Our numbers are to great "any formation is allowed to pass through an unoccupied defensible terrain feature, counting it as difficult terrain in all respects". Is this a mistake?

@Celebdriel

I agree. To use the rule "Our Numbers Are Too Great" to declare you are no longer occupying the defensive terrain, just passing through, seems a distortion of the rule.

So lets return to my example where a formation (a balrog?) enters a defensive terrain (a walled field?) and then have enemy companies (say hobbits?) move to surround the terrain feature. Since the terrain is occupied, the enemy companies cannot move in. If these enemy companies choose not to charge, nor move away, is the formation within effectively trapped within? Rules for exiting occupied defensive terrain would preclude it from leaving. If the formation cannot charge out of the terrain it then become effectively trapped. This seems ludicrous, no?

Thus I reiterate:
1. the charging rules do not prohibit charging from defensive terrain.
2. the defensive terrain rules do not prohibit charging from defensive terrain.
Conclusion: a formation can charge out of defensive terrain.

I acknowledge also the following:
a. the defensive terrain rule limits movement into and out of defensive terrain.
b. the rules for movement do not apply to charging. different phases, different rules.
c. leaving defensive terrain is not limited to movement, as a formation may also leave defensive terrain from losing a fight.
Conclusion: none of the above prohibits a formation charging from defensive terrain.

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warmancer

Yes



No this is not ludicrous, it would take 4 formations, possibly three to surround a terrain feature in this way. Remembering the formations would need to be legal. I imagine it would be trapped. Although the surrounding formations would be open to rear attacks etc.



Neither do they provide a mechanism for it, they only provide a mechanism for exiting during the move phase p53, "A formation may use its move to leave a terrain feature" - notably missing from the sentence is the word charge. Also on p55. as the result of losing a combat, the exiting MUST occur in the same way as previously described on p53 or the companies are destroyed.

A company if surrounded could therefore not charge as the only two methods described of leaving terrain must comply with p.53

Your example, subsituting the Balrog with Orcs. Not deployed in their tray. Where is the spearhead company? Remembering you must designate a spearhead company to charge. Where do you measure the charge from? Is it as per p54 where shooting is measured from the centre of the terrain. Do you double the move distance as you are in difficult terrain?

Very good point, and one which proves my point in the "area terrain" post, about rules contradicting each other on differing pages.
I can only assume the statement under "occupying terrain" is in error, or at least made void buy the subsequent statement in our numbers are too great.

To comment on other later issues of this post thread, made by Fracas, I can see his point that, although clearly contrary to the rules as written, it would make sense to allow a formation that is OCCUPYING a wood, to cease to do so, and allow it to form up a spearhead company within and at the fringe of the terrain feature and charge from there.

It grates on me that a formation could be prevented from charging from a terrain feature just by close enemy proximity, preventing its move deploying out of the wood first. I agree, its unlikely as you would need to surround the feature with a lot of units, but it is technically possible, and in light of decision (A) that from "area terrain" post confirmed (or decided) that a formation in but NOT occupying terrain has no cover bonus and can be clearly seen, so can shoot/be shot/charge/be charged, then in light if this, I think it only proper to (B) allow a formation to ready itself, from being in a defensive perimeter skirmish formation (OCCUPYING the terrain), back into a fighting formation ready to charge, from the terrain.

If you can have 'A', then I don't see why you can't have 'B'.

The Balrog in a field surrounded by hobbits scenario, clearly puts this into perspective - logically( by common sense) the Balrog can charge even if it had been 'OCCUPYING' the field. So if we allow this, then we must allow the above.

It's not the rules as written, but I would say - common sense.

Perhaps the only clarification will be if GW rewrites more clearly the terrain section and gives more examples of its implications to various phases of the game turn, including moving, shooting and charging. OR at least give us a damn good FAQ solution. ANYBODY out there from GW listening and care to contribute?

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

I wonder if the original intention of the rules was to only allow "bigger than" units to "pass through difficult terrain, and all others to "OCCUPY" it if they were able to. This of course would still lead to units not being able to charge out if they were surrounded as per the rules, but perhaps the wary commander should be reacting to this before it actually happens, rather than bemoaning it after the fact. Has anybody ever actually been surrounded in this way?

Perhaps the easiest solution would have been to remove the "occupying" rule altogether and allow a def bonus only if the unit moving through/in the terrain wasn't "too big". Of course this becomes a house rule if you choose to play it this way.

PS. Does a charging unit half it's move because it's in difficult terrain?

Yeah, that was my suggested point earlier in "area terrain" post


Yes see box out p43. Of course this wouldn't affect your pathfinder master elves...

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www.scottswargaming.blogspot.com

i do think it is ludicrous that 4 formations of a company each of hobbits can trap a balrog in a walled field
or to have any formation trapped in terrain at all!

it would also be ludicrous that a unit can charge through terrain but not charge from terrain


again, there is no prohibition to charge from terrain, there are rules regulating moving out of terrain in the movement phase
Thus I reiterate:
1. the charging rules do not prohibit charging from defensive terrain. This is true by the written rules.
2. the defensive terrain rules do not prohibit charging from defensive terrain. This is also true by the written rules. (movement restrictions should not be read as charging restriction. different phases)
Conclusion: a formation can charge out of defensive terrain.
since a formation in terrain has 360 arc, and can move out of terrain facing any direction, i would also say that the spearhead be able to charge out from any direction
i would go with this reading of the rule (allowing charging from defensive terrain) as being clearer than the reading allowing a formation to declare it is passing through rather than occupying in its move phase, then charge out in the charge phase.

with terrain
you can move into, you can move out of
you can shoot into, you can shoot out of
you can charge into, you can charge out of

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warmancer

You're interpreting something that is not there. Another way of reading this is that there is nowhere for the spearhead company to form (see as a result of combat), so the unit is destroyed as it emerges from the defensible terrain

Try this

1) There is a mechanism for moving out of occupied defensible terrain (and into)
2) There is a mechanism for exiting as the result of combat (as per 1 above)
3) There is no mechanism for charging from occupied defensible terrain

Conclusion

You can't do it.

yours is the common interpretation (Rules as Interpreted) but it is not predicated on the rules (as Written)

y'all are confounding movement restriction (of which exists for terrain) with charging restriction (of which does not exists for terrain).
since movement and charging are different, with different rules, to confound the two, or apply one for the other, is a misrepresentation of the rules


in the charge section, it states all formations can charge, with exceptions. the exceptions listed do not include formations in terrain.
the terrain rules also does not prohibit a formation from charging.
since the default is to allow formations to charge
and there is no specific prohibition of a formation in terrain to charge
the logical conclusion is that a formation in terrain can charge.


otherwise we could end up with farcical scenario of a balrog behind a wooden fence being trapped neutralized by 20+ hobbits.

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warmancer

And yet a Hobbit killed the Witch King... (in the book, not the movie), fought and defeated Shelob, and carried the ring into mount doom...



I disagree, as to charge you need to select a spearhead company, and when "occupying" terrain you cease to have one (unless monsters gain a special dispensation - which of course is mentioned no-where), If I have no spearhead company - I cannot charge.



Correct as a unit moving through terrain & not occupying it still has a spearhead company



Correct, but I still need to have a spearhead company and the only way to have one is to "exit" the terrain in the move phase, or as a result of losing combat



But I have no spearhead, so how can I, unless I add something to the rules that is not there, like forming inside the wood, or charging from the edge. Perhaps the best method then is to not occupy terrain as you may be trapped, highly unlikely as it may be.